Forgiveness is one sided. Why does it have to be accepted.

[Justsomedude]

I don't believe that is accurate. Jesus, being very God, had enough virtue to reconcile all of Creation into heaven. God, being infinite, is far greater than all created things massed together. So Christ's holy sacrifice is sufficient for all (just as scripture attests).

But that does not necessarily mean that all are saved. Christ laid the legal foundation for the offer of salvation. But that offer must be accepted, or it lies dormant, is of no effect and ultimately goes to waste.

Human forgiveness is a reflection of divine forgiveness. When we forgive someone, if it's met with acceptance and repentance then reconciliation can occur. If not, though he is forgiven, the transgressor doesn't benefit at all; he still has unrepented sin that is going to affect his life, his soul and his relationship to God. In such a case, our forgiveness does not preclude justice being served on the perpetrator, perhaps including eschatological justice. But on our side of the equation, we free ourselves from the bondage of unforgiveness and bitterness, our peace returns to us, and we remain in good standing with God.

Excluding the first paragraph (I'm not a Christian), I agree with everything in this post.

But I wasn't really talking the psychological aspects of forgiving or accepting someone's forgiveness.

I was thinking more along the lines of what happens after a person dies and is judged.

 

[chris4243]

I agree with every you have to say here. I just don't know what this has to do with this thread.

What if a person never forgives himself? Is he still "forgiven"?

 

[paul1149]

Excluding the first paragraph (I'm not a Christian), I agree with everything in this post.

But I wasn't really talking the psychological aspects of forgiving or accepting someone's forgiveness.

I was thinking more along the lines of what happens after a person dies and is judged.

Did you overlook my second paragraph? I thought I touched on that.

 

[Justsomedude]

What if a person never forgives himself? Is he still "forgiven"?

Did you overlook my second paragraph? I thought I touched on that.

You both brought a good point that I over looked, self forgiveness.

Maybe it is the case that Jesus forgives everyone but some choose damnation of their own accord because they refuse to forgive themselves?

 

[razeontherock]

Someone else asked about other possibilities and so I listed them and explained why they are logically inconsistent.

As for human limitations, I am limited in that I can't make sense out of statements that are logically inconsistent. 1) For example, someone can say "Jesus paid the price for everyone's sins so that everyone can be forgiven but some people are still unforgiven." The first part of the statement says that Jesus paid the price for everyone so it would appear that the price is paid for everyone and so I would think that it logically follows that everyone is forgiven. The second part of the statement contradicts the first, saying some people are still unforgiven. This does not logically follow and so I have no idea what meaning the statement is trying to convey. Either Jesus paid the price for everyone or he didn't. If some people are still unforgiven, then what meaning could it possibly have to say that Jesus paid the price for everyone's sins?





Ebia's statement was:



I did consider the statement but appearently you didn't understand it and so I will try to make it clear.

2) In Christianity it is asserted that repentence and belief is needed for reconciliation. Since not everyone is going to repent and/or believe then it logically follows that not everyone will be reconciled.

If we assume Jesus died for everyone's sins, but not everyone believes or repents, then it logically follows that everyone is forgiven but only a limited number of people are reconciled.



3) And this means what?

I separated out your 3 points. You claim to understand the first 2, but don't understand how the 3 are actually 1. How can you fail to comprehend the statement that final Judgment is not our's to look up in some book of rules, but is left in the hands of a living, breathing, Person?

Anyway in the bigger picture, what you are doing with what you are terming your 'rejection of Christianity,' can be put in OT / Jewish /Noahic terms:

Destroying the high places, and removing the idols. I wish ALL Christians would do that! Many don't even recognize that idolatry has application to us today. OTOH, sometimes Pastors and Priests go through this process, and it's a beautiful thing to behold ...

it's not a step away from Christianity, but most often the person comes to realize they were never a Christian previously.

 

[talitha]

God loved the world, so Jesus came and died for the purpose of reconciling mankind to God. He has done his part. Our part is only to come to him, ostensibly acknowledging our wrongdoings, and accept His peace-gift. When you forgave this person his debt to you, he did not do his part for reconciliation, so there is no relationship. You are playing the part of God in this little parable, and you are loathe to allow this man space in your head. Why should God allow any of us space in His Heaven if we do not accept His gift of forgiveness? It's the same thing. You see, the requirement to get into the presence of God for eternity is relationship with Him through accepting the sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[paul1149]

Maybe it is the case that Jesus forgives everyone but some choose salvation of their own accord because they refuse to forgive themselves?

This calls to mind the parable of the unforgiving servant, in Mt 18. The king completely wiped away his enormous debt, but he goes out and strong-arm's someone who owes him just a little. For doing that, he gets thrown into the torture chamber, where he now futilely try to pay off his original debt.

Why did the servant do that? Did he not understand that he was totally forgiven? Did he not understand the magnitude of his debt that was cleared? Maybe pride blinded him from understanding his bankruptcy, and drove him to want to pay off the debt himself, so he wouldn't have to acknowledge the king. Or perhaps he was so hardened that he did understand all that, and acted greedily anyway.

We're not really told, but the net effect is that the servant greatly dishonored the very king who had shown such an amazing amount of kindness. In doing so, he trusted in his own meager ability to fend for himself, and ultimately disqualified himself from grace and threw himself into the not-so-tender waiting arms of the law. He paid a horrific price for foolishly going his own way.

 

[bling]

Cain and Lameuch.

Jesus just got through saying forgive your “brother” as many times as he needs it. I was thinking “ How am I going to keep from being run over by my brother?” or “My brother will take advantage of my forgiving nature”. This is a very radical idea for that time and these are very practical type guys.
Wuld this run through your head?

 

[Justsomedude]

I separated out your 3 points. You claim to understand the first 2, but don't understand how the 3 are actually 1. How can you fail to comprehend the statement that final Judgment is not our's to look up in some book of rules, but is left in the hands of a living, breathing, Person?

I do not "fail to comprehend." More accurately, I reject this idea. G-d is not a man, who is mortal, fallible and changes. G-d is spirit, invisible and eternal.

Anyway in the bigger picture, what you are doing with what you are terming your 'rejection of Christianity,' can be put in OT / Jewish /Noahic terms:

Destroying the high places, and removing the idols. I wish ALL Christians would do that! Many don't even recognize that idolatry has application to us today. OTOH, sometimes Pastors and Priests go through this process, and it's a beautiful thing to behold ...

it's not a step away from Christianity, but most often the person comes to realize they were never a Christian previously.

That's actually a very good point. I admit to sometimes having doubts about whether or not I was ever a Christian.

Some deconverts are very sensitive about the claim that they were never a true Christian. I am not among them. I always had strong doubts about the legitmacy of Christianity and I do not remember ever having particularly positive feelings about the same.

On another note, I know some deconverts that despite having lost 'belief' they are still somewhat Christian in the way they think, act and feel. I have just come to realize that Christianity is more than just a belief and a religious practice but also a culture and an emotional make up.

 

[talitha]

*tap, tap.... is this thing on?

 

[Justsomedude]

God loved the world, so Jesus came and died for the purpose of reconciling mankind to God. He has done his part. Our part is only to come to him, ostensibly acknowledging our wrongdoings, and accept His peace-gift. When you forgave this person his debt to you, he did not do his part for reconciliation, so there is no relationship. You are playing the part of God in this little parable, and you are loathe to allow this man space in your head. Why should God allow any of us space in His Heaven if we do not accept His gift of forgiveness? It's the same thing. You see, the requirement to get into the presence of God for eternity is relationship with Him through accepting the sacrifice of Jesus.

I agree completely. But we kind of already covered that and moved on.

Where I am righ nowt is that a consistent, logical Christian theology is thus:

Jesus paid the price for everyone's sins and so G-d has forgiven everyone and not sentencing anyone to Hell. However, reconciliation is required to be admitted into Heaven and those that believe and repent are reconciled and thus admitted into Heaven.

Those that don't believe and repent chose Hell of their own accord.

 

[talitha]

okay - I read the thread and didn't see any room for that in what you said. So now you see the answer to your question. Case closed, right?

 

[Justsomedude]

okay - I read the thread and didn't see any room for that in what you said. So now you see the answer to your question. Case closed, right?

Not quite. Someone mentioned the parable in Matthew 18 where one man was forgiven but his forgiveness was revoked because be he didn't forgive.

I am not sure of what to make of the doctrine, "If you don't forgive, neither will it be forgiven of you."

I don't know how this fits into Jesus died for all our sins. Surely unforgiveness is a sin and so would have been covered on the cross but Mt 18 seems to be suggesting that it isn't.

How's this?:

Jesus died for every sin except for unforgiveness. Therefore unforgiveness is the one that damns you. So long as you forgive everyone, including yourself, you are covered. People that harber unforgiveness are damned and everyone is saved.

 

[razeontherock]

Where I am righ nowt is that a consistent, logical Christian theology is thus:

Jesus paid the price for everyone's sins and so G-d has forgiven everyone and not sentencing anyone to Hell. However, reconciliation is required to be admitted into Heaven and those that believe and repent are reconciled and thus admitted into Heaven.

Those that don't believe and repent chose Hell of their own accord.

This is closer than your last post. This much here I personally have trouble picking nits with, except you're still trying to reduce G-d Almighty to a formula.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Not quite. Someone mentioned the parable in Matthew 18 where one man was forgiven but his forgiveness was revoked because be he didn't forgive.

I am not sure of what to make of the doctrine, "If you don't forgive, neither will it be forgiven of you."

I don't know how this fits into Jesus died for all our sins. Surely unforgiveness is a sin and so would have been covered on the cross but Mt 18 seems to be suggesting that it isn't.

How's this?:
Jesus died for every sin except for unforgiveness. Therefore unforgiveness is the one that damns you. So long as you forgive everyone, including yourself, you are covered. People that harber unforgiveness are damned and everyone is saved.

Perhaps the problem with unforgiveness is not that it is a sin, but a rejection of the spirit of forgiveness and therefore a rejection of any forgiveness including one's own? You can be forgiven for the sin of unforgiveness but you can't establish a relationship with the one who forgives you while you hold others to a different and more stringent standard.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Justsomedude. Perhaps I did not quite get your meaning, I know that to forgive is good for the person who forgives, as when you forgave that man, it made you free from hurtful thoughts. When Jesus died for us it was necessary because there was no-one alive without sin or transgressions. And when Jesus paid for our sins, with His guiltless Blood, we were redeemed, forgiven. Jesus is our Saviour, and Jesus loves us and wants to help us to return to God, our Heavenly Father. We thank Jesus and gladly follow Him: He paid the prize, that we could not pay, He gave His Life that we might live. There are some of us who are too self-willed to follow Jesus, they rather go their own way, they are too stubborn, or not thankful enough to accept our Lord`s great Sacrifice. Jesus taught us the Prayer: " Father forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us." To be able to forgive is wonderful, and it is God`s wish that we do so, because it always helps us to forget, and not being hurt by it forever. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[elman]

I agree completely. But we kind of already covered that and moved on.

Where I am righ nowt is that a consistent, logical Christian theology is thus:

Jesus paid the price for everyone's sins and so G-d has forgiven everyone and not sentencing anyone to Hell. However, reconciliation is required to be admitted into Heaven and those that believe and repent are reconciled and thus admitted into Heaven.

Those that don't believe and repent chose Hell of their own accord.

It seems to me you left out the most important thing--love your neighbor, unless believe and repent is the same thing as love your neighbor.

 

[cranberries]

Suppose you do something wrong to me and I forgive you. You can choose not accept my forgiveness but it has no consequence. You are still forgiven. My ability to forgive you of your sins against me is not in anyway whatsoever contingent upon you.

So why would G-d require belief in Jesus and acceptance to forgive sins? Why is that necessary for G-d when it is not necessary for humans?

If a person says they have not sinned and therefore do not want forgiveness,God will not force eternal life and forgiveness on them.
God's forgiveness is eternal and was paid for with his own blood,he alone can forgive and wash away sin.
Forgiveness from God provides eternal life with him who is life.If people do not want their sins washed away and to receive his eternal life and live forever with him,he will never force it upon them.When people accept forgiveness and accept Jesus as their Saviour he also gives them a new heart,it is part of their salvation.Jesus will not force a new heart on anyone either.But that is part of salvation and forgiveness from God.

Human forgiveness does not include all this.Usually when a person forgives another person, if they do not accept that forgiveness reconciliation cannot be fully restored and the relationship fully healed.
Yet the offender knows it can be fully restored when he is ready because he has been forgiven.
He knows the person extending forgiveness loves him and is not holding anything against him and is willing to have a restored relationship.
The person who offended knows that he can go to the other person if he is hungry or thirsty and receive help.
He knows the person who forgave him is not holding a grudge and will never seek revenge and hopefully is also praying for him and hoping for good things in his life.
However the person who forgave him cannot wash his sins away and give eternal life.