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99.9% of all human actions, behavior, etc. has no scriptural precedent. Does that mean nothing to you?
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So the fact that their is absolutely No scriptural precedent for this type of union means nothing to you? You are aware that silence in scripture is not the same as a doctrine of permissibility? This is exactly what you are doing. You are in fact representing a biblical permissibility when their isn't a precedent for it. Why is this not a red flag for you?
This is blatantly untrue. Every example given is about a union between Man and woman. Nowhere in scripture has a same sex marriage ever been modeled or sanctified by God. If it is as you say and gay marriages were common place then why isn't their at least one simple provision that establishes the legitimacy of this union? Do you not think that God could not see or anticipate something like this to divide His church? Why not make one provision if this is in fact in His will?
You may choose to address what every you feel you can debate, but know that without a biblical context in which a homosexual relationship can be sanctified before God. your efforts can easily be identified as a personal belief, and that has little to nothing to do with the expressed will of God.
As I have mentioned to others this, discussion is about Homosexuality, Sin, The Homosexual doctrine of the permissibility of sin, and how that all relates to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Expressed will of God according to scripture.
If you wish to carry on without the bible to regulate your words or actions, then you may be doing so alone. I wish to have a Biblically based "Christian" conversation. Not an I said so conversation dressed in what looks like scripture.
So you are saying that Homosexuals are indigenous to north America or France or somewhere other than where the bible was actually being written, and the one's writing the scripture left out a homosexual clause, because they knew nothing of Homosexuality, but they knew of the passions that burn with in the relationships that they were indeed familiar with, and if they only knew or were somehow exposed to the homosexual polite that they would have included it in scripture...There is absolutely no Scriptural precedent for eating rainbow trout, either, since they are indigenous to North America, and thus not mentioned in the Bible. But we can see what kinds of fish are and are not abominations, and determine by extension, whether trout are kosher or trefe.
Similarly we can determine whether same-sex marriage is acceptable by extension. A person who is not called to a ministry that requires celibacy, and therefore not gifted with the extra grace to permanently renounce sex that Paul was gifted with is advised to marry rather than burn. If he is not burning for a woman, marrying a woman will not ease his burning. (Now sex is not the only, or even necessarily the best reason to get married, but it is a problem in unmarried persons, and thus the advice.)
Honestly I can not remember if it was you or another who dragged out this tediously long conversation as to the point or purpose of marriage. In that marriage is not just a context in which Sex is to take place.Yes, I know the standard answer is to require gays to commit to a life of celibacy whether or not they have Paul's gift, but that does nothing about the burning. And the Bible has many warnings about making unbreakable commitments that you do not have the assurance that you will be able to keep.
Still, the Bible does assure that God will provide a way of escape from all temptations, which would include this one. So what is the way of escape?
The Biblical precedent for marriage is polygamy. It is the most common version taught, and the one that God endorsed most often.Even if this were true we are indeed speaking of the .1%. In that Marriage is a behaivior that indeed has biblical precedent.
Just not Homosexual marriage.
Reparative therapy has been proven to be extremely psychologically damaging. In fact, several founders of ex-gay organizations have publically apologized for the damage their organizations have caused. The American Psychological Association strongly warns against them.
And regardless of what you may believe, the APA has also stated that sexual orientation by and large does not change. At least in the sense you're trying to think of it. Homosexuality is not a disease, and therefore cannot be cured (it's also insulting to claim it is a disease). Do some homosexuals end up having families? Yes, but I can guarantee you it's due to 1 of 2 reasons - 1) They are suppressing their feelings to fit in with society or 2) They shifted to the bisexual spectrum and are only catering to their opposite-sex attractions.
There is no documented evidence that anyone has ever gone from a Kinsey scale 6 to a 0. It doesn't happen. Orientation does have some fluidity, so some gays can eventually feel bisexual attractions, however, there is no guarantee that will happen nor is there a "cure" to make it happen.
The Biblical precedent for marriage is polygamy. It is the most common version taught, and the one that God endorsed most often.
Polycarp1,
Any church that doesnt find homosexuality a sin is arguably not a church, as the Bible condemns it without question, and the church is the body of believers.
Anyone who supports gay marriage or homosexuality has not yet accepted Jesus Christ as the way the truth and the life or the grace of God.
It's hard to make a claim about orientation with a teenager. Sexuality is still developing, which makes it rather pointless to label him at a young age.
I think the problem is, kids wouldn't feel like they would have to change to appease the church, if the church stopped bullying gays into believing they are evil and have a disease. Science has quite strongly shown that sexual orientation is largely determined at birth. Even if not 100%, there is a component of sexual orientation that one has no control over. I've not met a single heterosexual person that has claimed they chose to be straight. They just found when they were kids that the opposite-sex is "cute" or "pretty".
The LGBT community, particularly among teens and young adults, has the highest suicide rate of any other group. I don't think the "church" is helping the situation.
No, you have lost the plot. There is no scriptural support for same sex relations so there is no doubt that the scriptural exclusions and condemnations stand uncontested. All the pro-gay argument does is challenge the truth of the Bible with disbelief.There is absolutely no Scriptural precedent for eating rainbow trout,
Why keep asking, Jesus Christ tells you. John 8, if you hold onto His teaching you will know the truth and the truth wll set you free.Still, the Bible does assure that God will provide a way of escape from all temptations, which would include this one. So what is the way of escape?
## And many of those fighting "for equal rights for homosexuals" do so not because they are anti-Christian, but because they are Christians who are trying to make the values of the Kingdom of God are reality in the world. Those values include righteousness & peace & the promotion of righteousness. Sad to say, there is an element in the witness of Christians that is not righteous, that is opposed to the values of the Kingdom, & one way it comes out is in the preasching of hate against homosexuals.I disagree with what is being stated in the OP because I don't think that most "liberally minded people" are trying to get either "God" or "The Whole of Christianity" or both to "accept Homosexuality."
I do think that many "liberally minded people" are fighting for equal rights for homosexuals, including the right to enter into a civil union or civil marriage. I don't know of any among my homosexual friends who are trying to force the church to solemnize a homosexual marriage. I have seen a few such individuals in the national media, but I don't think that they represent the majority of homosexuals or even a significant minority.
## Accept asArchivist,
Well I know people who are in a civil partnership who do not want to force the church to recognise it as marriage, and in that respect I am delighted for them and their civil partnership, as they dont know Jesus I fail to see what difference it makes. However the government and pro-gay lobbies are determined to force the church to accept same sex unions as marriage
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lib-dems-to-vote-on-full-marriage-rights-for-gay-couples-2046695.html
So lets not pretend.
## And many of those fighting "for equal rights for homosexuals" do so not because they are anti-Christian, but because they are Christians who are trying to make the values of the Kingdom of God are reality in the world. Those values include righteousness & peace & the promotion of righteousness. Sad to say, there is an element in the witness of Christians that is not righteous, that is opposed to the values of the Kingdom, & one way it comes out is in the preasching of hate against homosexuals.
The Churches ought to be the first place after the home in which gay Christians can find sympathy, support, & recognition that they are children of God regardless of whether they are straight or not. What is so sad, & shameful, is that too often that is exactly what does not happen. It is painful enough for homosexuals to come to terms with their homosexuality - for Christians who come to recognise that they are homosexual by orientation, the discovery can be devastating. And then the Churches add to the pain, when they should be helping people to live through it.This weighs down those who are already heavy-laden with a further burden; no wonder many leave the Churches & the Christ they speak for, or commit suicide.
Part of the problem IMHO is that gays, including gay Christians, are not seen as individual human beings: they are seen, instead, as case studies - as "sinners", as members of an anonymous group who "measure up" to the description of something found in the Bible that just happens to be condemned. But man is not made for the Bible - the Bible is made for man. Being made by God, & loved by God, takes precedence over everything mere man can be or do - it takes precedence over being gay, & over being condemned for it.
People come to Christ "just as [they are]" - including those who are gay. God foreknew every single person who would either be gay & then, while still being gay, would be converted to Christ; & every single person who, while being Christian, would find he or she was gay. So how can the Churches cast out those whom God does not ? Or don't they believe in salvation by grace alone ? In Romans 8, St. Paul makes no exception for anything - "I am persuaded that nothing can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus". So how can being gay do that, even *if* it is a sin ?
Just MO
## While not agreeing with everything you've said, I want to say "Thank-you" for a very gracious post.To my well meaning brothers,
The reason why there is so much room for debate and argument in most of your positions of Homosexuality is because you are trying to preach from a position of authority and personally back righteousness. All of which is deeply founded in a denominationally specific take on scripture. These arguments do not work,
they only spawn rebuttals. Because they have been studied and broken down many times over. They will not work because there has been enough doubt built into the rebuttals to side track the debate. They don't need to win the argument, they only need to bog it down. so I ask why not try something else? Why not instead of addressing Homosexuality as a segregated sin, address it as any other sin. Is it not good enough that unrepentant homosexuality will receive the same hell as if we treated it as any other sin?
Instead of holding to the pride and righteousness that accompanies one when he calls another to a public repentance, why not simple and humbly show the sin for what it is. Do not elevate yourself or your sins above your potential homosexual brothers. Remove the idea that you are in the right, and are going to show those, in the wrong how to become right. There is no Right and Wrong. There is only wrong, and redeemed wrong doers. No one is good or right, only forgiven. Being forgiven is not the same as have never chosen to be outside the will of God. Forgiven is having the times you have indeed Chosen to be outside of God's will wiped clean. Acknowledging this Give Glory to God and his grace, rather than it being a testament to one's own self righteousness. Those outside of the church see this and label it hypocrisy. They do not know the gift and glory of salvation through redemption because we tend to only represent our own versions of righteousness. This righteousness can been seen through a mile away. This is what fuels the need less controversies. It is not spite for God. It is spite for what has been labeled Christian Hypocrisy.
If we approach those who do not yet seek forgiveness as a fellow seeker, rather than aperson who commands authority over another, less can be said in the way of argument. As it is there are those here who only wish to argue, and have devoted themselves, to all of the verses and arguments that people of church bring to speak against what they hold dear.
So let go of the need to segregate this sin or hold it over people as if it were a greater sin than the gossip or lies we are all guilty of. Simply establish the sinful nature of this act by directly quoting scripture. or if they refuse to accept what the bible openly says, then break homosexuality down to it's base components. (Sex outside of an unsantified marriage.) Make it a simple sin, that one needs to find repentance for. Show them that you sin and you need repentance too.
This will quickly separate those who argue just to argue, and those who seek God's truth. Shake the dust from your feet and leave those who look to justify their actions. rather, look to those who want to find forgiveness and show them the way.
The Sin of Homosexuality, like the arguments against it, is first about Pride. If you wish to leave a legacy of endless debate, and foolish controversy, then pick up your pride and your bible and just see how God honors your efforts. If you can first humble yourselves to God and ask the Spirit to teach you as He has taught others to speak to those who are in this sin, not to win debates, but to win over lost souls (Like you were) I promise you will see a different result in how God responds to your efforts.
## So when it "rains cats and dogs", how do you avoid being knocked out by all those cats and dogs raining down from the cloudsJase,
Look, if serveral passages can come to mean the opposite of what they say by 'interpretation' the nothing anything in the Bible or anything anyone writes would necessarily mean what it says. This 'intepretation' tactic is nonsense.
## FWIW, this:KCKID,
Let me be frank. The Bible passages quoted as in post #237, are quoted. They are quoted to show what the Bible says. If they dont mean what they say who could tell anything about what the Bible says!!!
Not accepting they mean what they say in context is disbelief. In context there is no question that these passages condemn same sex relations, there are dozens which countenance man/woman marriage only.
I dont see the point in continuing your argument when all the majority of Christians will do is rightly reject it as continued and determined disbelief.
## But...do they accept the Divine inspiration of the KJV, as God's preserved Word (as per Psalm 12:1,2) & the only true Bible versionActually, I can probably find you one without much effort. But then, I live about 20 miles from a major Southern Baptist Convention seminary (inerrantist/literalist/YEC)
The Biblical precedent for marriage is polygamy. It is the most common version taught, and the one that God endorsed most often.
This post deserves to be read and re-read by every Christian engaged in the debate, on either side.
Every one of you knows his or her own secret sin, how hard it was to deal with on your own, how freeing it was to be in Christ and have that burden lifted.
.And to know the welcoming love of Jesus and of those who follow Him
Now, even supposing that the anti-gays are right about homosexuality as chosen sexual sin -- and best evidence says they are not -- you have barred the door to the churches to anyone who admits to being gay.
You have decided to judge their sins on your opinion of what certain passages of Scripture mean -- admittedly a likely reason from their plain text taken in isolation and not in context, but still your interpretation.
You have in general refused to differentiate between orientation and act.
You have played semantic games with other people's legal rights and more, with their immortal souls.
Do not think for a minute that a merciful but just God will find you guiltless.
He warned as much, in the parables. If you choose to excuse yourselves, not to listen and repent, you have only yourselves to blame.
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