AngelusSax
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So the thread title isn't what the thread is about?Perhaps if you attempted to stay on topic confusion would not come to you so quickly.
FYI, I'm a Christian, and have belonged to several groups with homosexuals as members, and I've never been discriminated against by any of them.
hi drich,
It is done to keep us in line as civilised human beings.
For they fear if Christian man had an easy ride politically they would kill all homosexual offenders as happened during the Old Testament days and Yahweh's nEW tESTAMENT DAYS.
And so as not to offend any homosexual, Christian man might put to death every adulter and adultress also.
Does that answer your question as to why homosexuals are infiltrating a Christian man's domain?
seekthelord
This point is some what on topic. So it merits a legitimate response.
Identifying sin in an unrepentant brother is not discrimination in anyway. We are call to do this with anyone, not just gay people. You misunderstand basic Christianity, for bigotry. In that without repentance of sin, their can not be forgiveness of said sin no matter what it is. Having a non-biblical world based view on tolerance toward certain sin, does not excuse the sin before the Lord. Remember Christ Died for Forgiveness of Sin and not the Permissibility of Sin.
What Most of us are doing is simply identifying sin. It take a intolerant attitude to only view this as just another form of hate, primarily because it does not fit your specific way of doing things. You will do well to remember this is a conversation is about the expressed Will of God (What is recorded in scripture) The Church, (Those who claim Christianity and by default God's expressed will) Sin, (Anything not in the expressed will of God) and how that relates to the Homosexual Doctrine. (Permissibility of sin, and unbiblical tolerance, rather Forgiveness through repentance like any other sin.) This is not a secular discussion about the permissibility of Homosexuality in our society. Do try and color with in the lines this time.
I don't think that's the reason... Many try to just live their lives, but are berated constantly by conservatives (the majority of whom mean well), and after so long of this happening, I think a lot of them just start fighting back. It's probably far less important that someone agree with them either theologically or politically than it is they don't get berated for being who they are. Unfortunately, many people will stop berating only when they agree. Hence, the arguments.
That's my thoughts, anyway. It's pretty much conjecture, but it's how I think I would feel in the same situation.
So the thread title isn't what the thread is about?
This statement implies that you think the only sin to ever exist is homosexuality. There's all sorts of sin out there that isn't based on faulty translations to be forgiven from, a man-made sin based on faulty translations and misinterpretations and projecting 21st century knowledge onto 1st century authors of Scripture isn't really necessary to still need forgiveness. There's inhospitality, greed, lust (which does apply to both the homosexual and heterosexual, as all sins do), lying, hatred, murder (which hatred is, according to Christ), idolatry (which can be as severe as worshipping Baal, or as "minor" as putting money above God--we think of it as minor because we don't consider ourselves to be doing it even when we are, because sin is sneaky that way), and so on. There's judging someone else's speck before removing your own plank. All sorts of things.Not really. Because in order for the Homosexual doctrine to be accepted the Gospel of the Forgiveness of sin has to be removed.
This thread is about INFILTRATION of the Homosexual Doctrine into the Body of believers, not the INDOCTRINATION of the body of believers to the homosexual Doctrine. (Which seems to be the only topic "sniper guy" is prepared to discuss with me.)
I would have thought that you have been involved here long enough to recognize that if you chose to.
Or do you simply not give me credit enough to identify my own intentions?
If "Historical Christianity" was the actual standard in which sins were measured, then yes. But as it is The Bible is the standard in which we are to determine God's expressed will. not through committee nor through some sort of emissary. Because the bible is our sole source to determine God's Expressed will, I will say that not adhering to a specific denomination is not a sin because no specific denomination was mentioned in the Bible for the "correct" worship of God.So, then, we would be justified in saying that YOU are failing to repent of your sins against our brothers and sisters of same-sex orientation in your numerous misstatements of the Gospel from your fraudulent so-called "non-denominational Bible-based" viewpoint, which has never been the stance of historical Christianity, and that your sins are not forgiven until you repent of them.
Again this is not an issue about how the world treats homosexuals this is about Identifying sin and repenting of that sin. If you wish to hold Christianity accountable to something then show them how to treat a Repentant Sinner.And that therefore your civil rights should be impeded by all right-thinking people until you come to your senses and repent? (And yes, this is not a personal attack; it's following Jesus's direct commandments as spelled out in the Gospels. And I can cite you book chapter, and verse for every one of them if you wish.)
Christ Will is outlined in Mat 28:Or does the shoe pinch too much when it's your own foot that it is on? Because Jesus said, in effect, that if it does, you're not following His will. So take a good hard look at what you are purveying here.
Done, what about you?Now, do you plan on repenting of your sin? Or are you going to make some handwaving claim that I'm changing the subject.
The subject is whether homosexuals are "forcing the Church to accept them." They're not. But Jesus is. Or else you've turned your holier-than-thou back on Him too.
It's in the Gospels
Accepting homosexuality, and the forcedness of that, is indoctrination. Perhaps you titled the thread wrong and that confuses people.
So in your economy it is ok to have one sin that can be taught from a position of permissibility.. Now what if the bible does not support your forgone conclusions? Do we simply change the bible? Now what about adulterers, are their needs any less valid that the needs of the Homosexual. If we changed the bible for them, then why not for the adulterers? And on and on and on...This statement implies that you think the only sin to ever exist is homosexuality.
I have shown time and time again that Identifying Homosexuality as a sin has nothing to do with what any of you has deemed as a "faulty translation." Why do you people continually return to this dry well? At best, your efforts only silence the bible as to what it directly says about homosexuality, it does not give permission for it. Especially in light of the scriptures i have provided that point to the sinful nature of this act.There's all sorts of sin out there that isn't based on faulty translations to be forgiven from, a man-made sin based on faulty translations and misinterpretations and projecting 21st century knowledge onto 1st century authors of Scripture isn't really necessary to still need forgiveness.
All sin deserves and will receive the same hell. So in reality their is no point of "grading" sin.There's inhospitality, greed, lust (which does apply to both the homosexual and heterosexual, as all sins do), lying, hatred, murder (which hatred is, according to Christ), idolatry (which can be as severe as worshiping Baal, or as "minor" as putting money above God--we think of it as minor because we don't consider ourselves to be doing it even when we are, because sin is sneaky that way), and so on. There's judging someone else's speck before removing your own plank. All sorts of things.
Do you not understand that neither you or the church you worship at has the ability to set the sin standard? That you do not have the authority to simply repeal a sin if it does not fit in your liking? Do you not also understand that you are Misrepresenting God with your words and actions? Does this not concern you?You may say that if you accept homosexuality then you must accept everything, because it's an all-or-nothing issue. If that is your faith, I won't remain here as a stumbling block for you. But some of us are able to examine our faith and take a close, hard look at the different facets of it, and then remove what ultimately needs removed based on our understanding, and keep what needs kept, never having to forsake the entire Bible to change something, because it's our understanding the Bible that changes. In other words, we don't change God and don't say God has changed (well, I don't, though some might... let me be clear on that).
How can you accept one (Lust and fornication) to be a sin and not the other? Do you not realize that Homosexual sex is still sex? That a Homosexual lust is still lust? If these are true, then you must know that there is not a sanctified context in which a gay couple can have sex before God. Meaning they can not be sanctified through marriage then all gay sex is indeed a sin. Now note I did not use any mistranslations to come to that conclusion. their is no way around this sin whether we like it or not. Homosexuality is a sin, one like any other. It needs to find Forgiveness through repentance.Of course, there are stories where prayer is shown to have caused God to change God's mind (Moses praying to God to not wipe the Israelites off the map comes to mind). But anyway, it is our understanding of the Bible that changes. It's not just doing away with things because we don't like it. If I were going to do that, to be honest, I would do away with condemnation of lust as adultery. There's lots of times I find myself either lusting of coming close to it, and I'd like to just go ahead and do that (and I have fallen and looked at sites I shouldn't, to be honest and confessional here), but I still understand that to be sin.
I do not understand homosexuality to be a sin,
Again note I formulated that homosexuality was a sin by not using any of the verses you used to put together this paragraph. now what say you?except the kind being addressed in the Bible, where people who had wives were engaging in homosexual sex (people were sold to each other as husband and wife before they could make any real decision for themselves the way they do today, in most cases)., either through ritualistic orgies or to degrade their fellow man in an act of forcing that man into the woman's position, essentially raping them. Committed, lifelong relationships of a homosexual nature were not being thought of or discussed, so there is no prohibition of them in mind, as I understand it. And since there is no prohibition of them in mind in the written Scriptures (again, as I understand it), I can make no prohibition either.
You don't like that, you don't have to. I'm not now, nor ever, going to force you to my position. But just know that my position doesn't come from mere whims and likes and dislikes. That's all I really ask
Gay Christians may seek to have christianity accept them. secular gays generally just want equality.Why is there a need for liberally minded people to have God or The Whole of Christianity to accept Homosexuality?
Many doWhy not just be Gay, and shrug off what the bible or church says?
arguing your opinion and trying to convince others of your view is pretty natural. I see no reason why they would not.Why do we have to believe what you believe?
Homosexuals have no legally recognized marriage in most of the country, but they still have marriage ceremonies. So let me turn the question around on you. If you live in a country where Christians are forbidden to marry, but you have whatever ceremonies your denomination uses for marriage, are you married in the eyes of God?For those of you in the Church, do you not understand that even if you can silence what the bible says of homosexuality specifically. that Homosexuality is still considered a sin because at it's core it's sex outside the confines of marriage. Without Book Chapter and verse as to the permissibility of sexual activity outside the confines of a sanctified marriage, special permission for gay sex, or an example of a sanctified same sex marriage. a doctrine that permits homosexuality can not represent the will of God. As a member of the church why do you represent a doctrine that does not represent God? To Whom do you serve if not God? Do you not see a problem with a system of belief that doesn't represent the one you claim to represent? Is a righteousness based in popular morality what you believe to be what dictates the will of God?
[serious];55577166 said:Gay Christians may seek to have Christianity accept them. secular gays generally just want equality. Many do arguing your opinion and trying to convince others of your view is pretty natural. I see no reason why they would not. Homosexuals have no legally recognized marriage in most of the country, but they still have marriage ceremonies. So let me turn the question around on you. If you live in a country where Christians are forbidden to marry, but you have whatever ceremonies your denomination uses for marriage, are you married in the eyes of God?
Why wouldn't you be married? In the original covenant between man, woman and God. "government" was not apart of the equation. Even in the new covenant a Governmental stamp of approval is not apart of that requirement. God has defined marriage in scripture. so long as your marriage meets these requirements then you are indeed married before God. Remember is it not a ceremony, or a certificate that makes a marriage it is a pledge between one man and one woman, before God, and witnesses of the pledge that makes a marriage.
The Government can only authorize civil unions. If they wish to call it a marriage then they are free to do so, but know that a civil union does not a sanctified marriage make.
[serious];55578211 said:Ok, so if the government is irrelevant, let's take the next step. If two atheists are married by a judge (or in a non Christian ceremony), then convert to Christianity, are they considered married before God?
Again, almost no one would deny that they are still married. Now, if government doesn't need to be involved, and a church doesn't need to be involved, let's turn back to your earlier question. Ignoring the issue of whether homosexuality is in itself a sin, is it, by definition, fornication because it happens outside of marriage. The answer to that is simple, not if they get married.
As I said in an earlier post to you, neither a certificate, nor a certain ceremony makes or defines a sanctified marriage before God. If the couple meets the requirements then they are married before God no matter what type of ceremony they decide to have. Homosexual couples cannot meet the requirements for a sanctified marriage. If you believe that they do, and can please provide us with the scripture to back this assertion. We need to see a context where God sanctifies a same sex relationship in the covenant of marriage. Otherwise know a "civil union" is not a sanctified marriage before God. Also know Any state sponsored or sanctioned wedding is at best a civil union. That is not to say one cannot be married before God in the state wedding. All one has to do is meet the requirements before God.
Your argument seems to put all of it's legitimacy in the ceremony itself. Know that the blessing of God is not obligated to just anyone who wants to call a civil union a marriage. Without Book Chapter and verse to back your assertion up, it can be quickly dismissed as wishful thinking.
Says you. The original scripture disagrees. Btw, there is no such thing as "abomination" in the Bible. To'evah means "taboo" or "ritually impure", both of which have drastically different interpretations than "abomination".Regardless of marriage or civil union, homosexual acts are an abomination in the eyes of God.
[serious];55578746 said:OK, spell out the requirements then. If they are specified in the Bible, please cite.
EDIT: if you've already provided this earlier in the thread, a link to the post will be fine.
Says you. The original scripture disagrees.
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