Forced Gaza Pullout

[JPPT1974]

Yes I guess they are if you know what I mean!

 

[Chosen One]

Well, I'm not worried about Israel militarily, they've proven they can take care of themselves just fine. The problem is the rest of the world's treatment of Israel simply because the Arabs have the goods...

Obviously you have never driven on the nice side of town in LA, New York, Boston, Balitmore. All the mailboxes are *teins, *mans, etc....

To claims that Arabs have the goods is a farce. The Israeli lobby runs this country- not you, not me- them.....

 

[MaryS]

Obviously you have never driven on the nice side of town in LA, New York, Boston, Balitmore. All the mailboxes are *teins, *mans, etc....

To claims that Arabs have the goods is a farce. The Israeli lobby runs this country- not you, not me- them.....

I can't respond to the other regions you're stating, but I've never seen names on mailboxes in the LA area. The suggestion that last names indicate whether a person is Jewish is not valid, though it holds true for many of the Jewish politicians I know. Both my Senators, Boxer and Feinstein are Jewish.

Don't presume that American Jews care about Jews in Israel. There are some, but the majority are voting other issues just like the rest of us voters.
We also know that every president since Truman has considered Israel our ally and supported them in most cases.

The Israeli lobby is just as legal as the Arab and Muslim lobby groups.

I looked up the pro-Israel donations and found the top recipients for 2004:

Pro-Israel:
Top 20 Senators , election cycle 2004
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.asp?Ind=Q05&cycle=2004&recipdetail=S&Mem=Y&sortorder=U
1- Daschle, Tom (D-SD) $245,075
2- Specter, Arlen (R-PA) $234,200
3- Lieberman, Joe (D-CT) $229,550
4- Wyden, Ron (D-OR) $162,950
5- Boxer, Barbara (D-CA) $142,110
6- Murray, Patty (D-WA) $130,745
7- Mikulski, Barbara A (D-MD) $127,125
8- Feingold, Russell D (D-WI) $113,703
9- Brownback, Sam (R-KS) $98,100
10- Dodd, Chris (D-CT) $97,150
11- Schumer, Charles E (D-NY) $96,000
12- Bennett, Robert F (R-UT) $95,750
13- Bayh, Evan (D-IN) $95,250
14- Reid, Harry (D-NV) $94,200
15- Inouye, Daniel K (D-HI) $91,200
16- Shelby, Richard C (R-AL) $83,900
17- Grassley, Chuck (R-IA) $73,500
18- Bunning, Jim (R-KY) $71,150
19- Murkowski, Lisa (R-AK) $68,850
20- Dorgan, Byron L (D-ND) $63,390

Pro-Israel:
Long-Term Contribution Trends
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?ind=Q05

I didn't find any way of looking up the trends or top recipients of Arab/Muslim political action donations to politicians.
However, I did check some individual politicians, based on their voting habits, just out of curiosity. I was not surprisded to see that Ron Paul (R-TX) had an Arab PAC among his top contributors for 2004. Ron Paul not only voted against the war in Iraq, but he is the only one in Congress I know of that also voted against the Patriot Act AND against a resolution of allegiance to Israel in the war on terrorism.

 

[indra_fanatic]

Bear in mind my opinion of Israel is well...... dismal to say the least. I have generally been against most of the aid we have given them. But if Palestinians persist upon attacking Israel, and Israel maintains a defensive stance, I could see myself supporting the notion of giving Israel aid. If they do persist, and Israel doesn't reciprocate their violence, we should gather the international community for an ultimatum (because those are fun) towards Palestian: "make peace and we will consider your becoming an independent nation. Use force and terror, and will assure your expulsion".

We shouldn't give EITHER side aid. We should butt out and allow the parties involved to settle the conflict on their terms. Yes, Israel does happen to have hundreds of times more military power than all the Arab nations combined--but that isn't its fault; the Soviet Union tried with all its might to use the Arab states to crush Israel, and if they failed... well, I guess a higher power is to blame.

[QUOTE}Then we can bring this conflict much closer to an end, for better or for worse. But the question is, can we bring enough of the international community behind such an ultimatum, and will Israel be able to take the high road if attacked again.[/QUOTE]
Hah! This is so much nonsense. What other nations are ever expected to take the "high road"? What would Saudi Arabia do if a terrorist Orthodox settler dressed as an imam snuck into a madrasa and blew himself and as many Muslim schoolchildren up as possible? What would China do if a Tibetan monk stormed a local military base? Give me a break! It's a nutty double standard...

 

[indra_fanatic]

Obviously you have never driven on the nice side of town in LA, New York, Boston, Balitmore. All the mailboxes are *teins, *mans, etc....

To claims that Arabs have the goods is a farce. The Israeli lobby runs this country- not you, not me- them.....

Umm guys... am I the only one who seems to think this kind of rhetoric is straight out of the Protocols?

 

[MaryS]

Umm guys... am I the only one who seems to think this kind of rhetoric is straight out of the Protocols?

I've heard similary rhetoric in the past, but it was coming from the far-right-wing followers of Pat Buchanan. I have never, until I got on the internet, seen people on the left with such assorted and negative attitudes toward Israel. I'm in Los Angeles County and have lived in more than 5 different locations...and still have never heard of an anti-Israel person.
At least Henry Ford eventually apologized for his long involvement in vitriolic anti-semitism.

Hamas, one of the best-known terrorist groups supporting Palestinians has the silly Protocols in their covenant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas :
The Hamas Covenant, written in 1988, states that the organization's goal is to "raise the banner of God over every inch of Palestine," i.e. to eliminate the State of Israel (and any secular Palestinian state which may be established), and to replace it with an Islamic republic.

Hamas rejects "so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences" as
incapable of realizing justice or restoring rights to the oppressed, believing "there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."

The Hamas Covenant cites the long-discredited anti-Semitic fraud, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, describing it as "the embodiment of the Zionist plan to usurp Palestine". Hamas dismisses the Freemasons, Lions Club, and the Rotarians as organizations promoting "the interest of Zionism." Some Hamas members have alleged that Jewish people were responsible for the French Revolution, "Western colonialism," and both World Wars.

 

[simplicity]

I have to congratulate the Israelis on proceeding with a plan that must surely be extremely painful and difficult. Apart from my Grade 3 teacher, I rarely met Jewish kids until I got to highschool. At that time I sure didn't know a whole lot of details about Jewish people at all. And I must admit I still don't understand why there is such a collosal effort to keep Israel a "Jewish State" - in light of the surrounding populations.

BUT, I do know how hard it must be for a family to leave their home and many of their belongings through no fault of their own. I recognize it's a genuine sacrifice. And those are the sorts of tangible things people don't often do these days.

 

[night2day]

I can only state the old adage: "Two wrongs don't make a right." Between those who use violence and abuse of the power given to them as goverment authorities...and the terrorists who would use any means to get what they want, when they want, however they want...there are innocent people caught up within all of this.

The mainstream media often portrays this is as a polititcal Isreali-Arab issue. However, the fact still remains Islamic terrorists will still use violence wherever and whenever they can to gain even more foothold as they themselves have chanted. Isreali forces have been guilty of their own crimes regarding the people who live among and around them.

Both sides have drawn innocent victims to this war that want no part in the fighting at all. And lest it be forgotten, there are Christians Palistinians as well who have no part in this but, again, they simply happen to be living within the region.

Give in to terrorists' demands, and they will never be satisfied. All one has to do is recheck history.

 

[mpshiel]

First off all, in the same way Taliban does not equal Terrorist, Palistinian does not equal terrorist. Hamas may be a terrorist organization (it also happens to be doing great at winning hearts and minds since it also builds most hospitals, schools, etc in the region).

The question is: Why did Sharon order the withdrawl? True, having 8,000 Isrealis taking up 25% of the land in the Gaza when 750,000 Palistinians have the other 75% may seem unequal but the Isreali Army was there to enforce thier claim.

Many analysist have suggested this is less about Gaza and more about the West Bank - that in giving up Gaza, which did only have 8,000 he can concentrate on the wall and making sure that east Jerusalem is never given back or that the west bank is never returned to the Green Line (since technically all the settlements of Isrealis, though planned, are illegal, even by Isreali law - and only acknowledged under recognizing "the facts on the ground"). Will this work in time? Probably, as long as a settlement is reached under a right wing American government.

The greatest problem Isreal faces is due to thier latest "accomplishment" - to ensure a weak and ineffectual leader of the Palastinian authority. Let's face it, Isreal obviously hated Arafat, but on the other hand, he was a leader that could possible enforce agreements on independant terrorist organizations (having killed a few people is actually a good thing when dealing with a rough unorganized government). Now, they have the equivalent of the English Professor trying to go down and tell gangsters and street gangs what to do. Which means while hamstringing the Palastinian authority from having a strong head to oppose Isreali actions, they also don't have anyone with which to make a standing lasting deal because they don't believe he has the power to enforce them - ah, a bit of a ironic turn that.

 

[Victory of the Cross]

Every Inch given to terrorists is a crime if you ask me, if i was sharon i would take back all i had already given, hopefully the PA will screw up yet again, and israel will be able to reclaim their land.

 

[Chosen One]

Every Inch given to terrorists is a crime if you ask me, if i was sharon i would take back all i had already given, hopefully the PA will screw up yet again, and israel will be able to reclaim their land.

Oh yes- EVERY PALESTINEAN is a terrorists. We must not forget this.

We must also remember that this is Israel's land- home for the Jews. It is simply a mistake of history that non Jews have been living on it for hundreds of generations. It is also a mistake of history that Jews moved away from this land to live in Europe, North America, Russia, and other places.

It is time to correct the errors of history and kick out the intruders and let the proper owners of this land back.

 

[koninkaulus]

Independent Nation?! Oh my gosh! Come on they have been killing the Jews for years; the Arabs had their chance in 1949, when they could have had more land than the Jews. But they said "no". The Jews tried and tried for peace through paper but it just didn't work. They won and now the Arabs have little because they refused there chance.

UN declared two truces May 29 1948 and July 18, 1948. On both occasions Folke Bernadotte (UN mediator) presented partitions plans and both sides rejected them. On the September 17 Lehi assassinated Bernadotte.

By the way this is what wikipedia says about Lehi: “Lehi (Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel") was a radical self-described terrorist group that had as its goal the eviction of the British from Palestine to allow unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state.”

Few quotes from these “peace loving” Zionists.

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

 

[2001MustangGT]

Every Inch given to terrorists is a crime if you ask me,

So is bulldozing families homes and checkpoints and barriers that effectively ruin the Palestinian economy.

if i was sharon i would take back all i had already given, hopefully the PA will screw up yet again, and israel will be able to reclaim their land.

What a great idea. Im sure that will result in less death, and more peace. I bet the Palestinians would all condemn Hamas if that were to happen. I bet the Jews would never experience another terrorist attack if you got your way.

It is not "their" land. It is not Palestinians land. It is equally BOTH their land and they both have to learn to cooperate, which is something youre obviously not interested in.

The only real solution, the only way to end the violence, is to unify Israel and Palestine as one nation with equal rights for all Muslims and Jews. But that will never happen...

 

[Harpuia]

Oh yes- EVERY PALESTINEAN is a terrorists. We must not forget this.

You invalidate your whole statement as an absolute. There are Palestinian Christians, you call them terrorists? You just did. Smart move.

We must also remember that this is Israel's land- home for the Jews. It is simply a mistake of history that non Jews have been living on it for hundreds of generations. It is also a mistake of history that Jews moved away from this land to live in Europe, North America, Russia, and other places.

Actually, it's a part of history. Romans burn the place down and call it Palestine. Jews come back some 1600 years later. Now that that's been out in the open for a couple years now, the thought of "Well, the Palestinians had it first," becomes less and less common.

 

[Chosen One]

You invalidate your whole statement as an absolute. There are Palestinian Christians, you call them terrorists? You just did. Smart move.



Actually, it's a part of history. Romans burn the place down and call it Palestine. Jews come back some 1600 years later. Now that that's been out in the open for a couple years now, the thought of "Well, the Palestinians had it first," becomes less and less common.

It is good to see sarcasm is lost on some people. However, you give me an idea. How about we switch off every 1600 years or so. Arabs had it from around 400 AD to 1942 or so.. Let's let the Jews have it until 3200 or so. By then, we should hopefully be off of oil so the region will be a lot less hostile.

 

[Harpuia]

It is good to see sarcasm is lost on some people. However, you give me an idea. How about we switch off every 1600 years or so. Arabs had it from around 400 AD to 1942 or so.. Let's let the Jews have it until 3200 or so. By then, we should hopefully be off of oil so the region will be a lot less hostile.

3200? That's a long time. So long in fact it isn't really our problem.

Actually, I think the world might "end" long beforehand.

 

[BarbB]

Offtopic- but I once dated a girl named Gaza. The name of this thread gives me the chuckles.

Also off-topic, but I heard the other day that the Hebrew word for toilet seat is "oslo". Now which came first?

Also, Mary - Arlen Specter is a retired DA of Philadelphia. How on earth did he get rich enough to donate this kind of money?

Specter, Arlen (R-PA) $234,200

 

[armyman_83]

UN declared two truces May 29 1948 and July 18, 1948. On both occasions Folke Bernadotte (UN mediator) presented partitions plans and both sides rejected them. On the September 17 Lehi assassinated Bernadotte.

OOOOh ok so this is after the Arabs rejected the other proposel .....The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected.

But the Jews, decieded it was foolish to deal with them, and fought for independence? And declared their independence on May 18, 1948. On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel.
This war lasted 19 months.

 

[lakesidelady]

Jews shouldn't be fighting each other; they have enough enemies around them. It's a shame that soldiers had to forcibly evict Jews from synagogues. I was once in a Prague synagogue. I could almost see, in my mind, the Nazis forcing the rabbi and other Jews from there. I'm not saying that the Jewish soldiers were Nazis.

I don't think this'll be peace; it'll only become a den of vipers. It'll be a jumping off point for terrorists. Then the Palestinian leaders will want the West Bank and then Jerusalem. They'll only be satisfied when the state of Israel is no more.

I do feel sorry for the common folk on both sides who are just trying to survive.

 

[Harpuia]

Yeah, the Jews fighting each other is not good for Israel's morale. They're doing exactly what the surrounding Arabs (that care at least) hoped they would do. But let's face it, it is tough to leave your home, but you should do it with pride for your country hoping and knowing that if you all leave peacefully, you will have sent a message to the Arab countries that you are united and prepared to fight when necessary.

I'm just thinking too much into this...