For Your Information - Hunt Exposes Calvinism

Ormly · Jun 4, 2009

Hammster said:
No. I just wanted to know if you knew that it can be used in more that just the strict literal sense, which it seems you are doing. But, if you don't mind, could you clear it up and explain what it means?

Begin to understand now that when a Calvinist can't explain something it has to be a "mystery" or he invents other definitions, short-changing some, to help him explain AWAY that of God's word that could have otherwise rectified his thinking, to bring into his theology a more accurate account of things written. Don't you see that is what you are attempting to do? Let it say what it says. In this case we are speaking of faith. Abraham was a father it. Now, He can't be in one in one instance a father and, at your choosing not be the same father in another instance/circumstance. Help me to understand this if you see an error in that?

Hammster · Jun 4, 2009

Ormly said:
Begin to understand now that when a Calvinist can't explain something it has to be a "mystery" or he invents other definitions, short-changing some, to help him explain AWAY that of God's word that could have otherwise rectified his thinking, to bring into his theology a more accurate account of things written. Don't you see that is what you are attempting to do? Let it say what it says. In this case we are speaking of faith. Abraham was a father it. Now, He can't be in one in one instance a father and, at your choosing not be the same father in another instance/circumstance. Help me to understand this if you see an error in that?

So what you're saying is that nobody had faith prior to Abraham? And also, are you promoting modalism, because Jesus is the Father?

Ormly · Jun 4, 2009

Hammster said:
So what you're saying is that nobody had faith prior to Abraham? And also, are you promoting modalism, because Jesus is the Father?

There you go again, deflecting the whole issue over to me and what someone has spoken of a, that you read somewhere, as being of some sect thinking, instead of letting the word say what it says. Again we read;

"Therefore, the promise is based on faith so that it can be a gift. Consequently, the promise is guaranteed for every descendant [of Abraham], not only for those who are descendants by obeying Moses' Teachings but also for those who are descendants by believing as Abraham did. He is the father of all of us,
Romans 4:16 (GW)

[emhasis mine]

Jesus is a decendent of Abraham. Ever wonder why Jesus is not coming again as Son of God?

Hammster · Jun 4, 2009

Could "father" be used in the sense of first and preeminent? Such as Father of our Country in reference to Washington, or Everlasting Father in reference to Jesus?

Ormly · Jun 4, 2009

Hammster said:
Could "father" be used in the sense of first and preeminent? Such as Father of our Country in reference to Washington, or Everlasting Father in reference to Jesus?

Sorry Hammster, I am not going there with you. Either let it say what it says and build upon it or, chase you own rabbits.

Hammster · Jun 4, 2009

Ormly said:
Sorry Hammster, I am not going there with you. Either let it say what it says and build upon it or, chase you own rabbits.

It isn't a rabbit. All I am doing is pointing out that 'father' has other meanings than what you are pouring into it. It just doesn't mean what you think it means. Sorry.

Ormly · Jun 4, 2009

Hammster said:
It isn't a rabbit. All I am doing is pointing out that 'father' has other meanings than what you are pouring into it. It just doesn't mean what you think it means. Sorry.

Let it say what it says or continue to come up short in your understanding of Jesus Christ, context will easily answer your question. That is your decision to make.

FWIW, I submitted a new thread you may wish to review.

Hammster · Jun 4, 2009

Ormly said:
Let it say what it says or continue to come up short in your understanding of Jesus Christ, context will easily answer your question. That is your decision to make.

FWIW, I submitted a new thread you may wish to review.

I am letting it say what it says, with the understanding that you can't read everything in a wooden literal sense. So, what it says is that Abraham is the father of our faith. He is the role model, so to speak.

However, when it comes to salvation, I will be looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

nobdysfool · Jun 4, 2009

Hammster said:
I am letting it say what it says, with the understanding that you can't read everything in a wooden literal sense. So, what it says is that Abraham is the father of our faith. He is the role model, so to speak.

However, when it comes to salvation, I will be looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Amen!

Ormly · Jun 4, 2009

Hammster said:
I am letting it say what it says, with the understanding that you can't read everything in a wooden literal sense. So, what it says is that Abraham is the father of our faith. He is the role model, so to speak.

However, when it comes to salvation, I will be looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ah, yes, its the salvation issue again. . . Can't get beyond it no matter whatever else the scriptures offer up for our understanding of what it is Paul is writing about and to whom it is written and for what reason it was.

And you want scripture from me? Why when you aren't handling what you have properly. Here;

This fits: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20 (KJV) Do you really know what Paul is writing here?

Hammster · Jun 4, 2009

Actually, I am trying to get a fix on where you are coming from. you obviously know where you are coming from when you post scripture. I don't know where you are coming from. All I know for sure is that you oppose Calvinism. which is fine.

Also, why should I not bring up salvation in a subforum called Soteriology?

Ormly · Jun 4, 2009

Hammster said:
Actually, I am trying to get a fix on where you are coming from. you obviously know where you are coming from when you post scripture. I don't know where you are coming from. All I know for sure is that you oppose Calvinism. which is fine.

I won't be drawn into discussion with anyone whose mind is made up and snapped shut like several on this forum I wouldn't give the time of day and for that reason. Is your mind made up and snapped shut?

Also, why should I not bring up salvation in a subforum called Soteriology?

Because the issue altered to speak of other things. . . which makes that reply from you a "Strawman". . . . .

Hammster · Jun 4, 2009

Ormly said:
I won't be drawn into discussion with anyone whose mind is made up and snapped shut like several on this forum I wouldn't give the time of day and for that reason. Is your mind made up and snapped shut?

Is yours? It seems to me that you don't want discussion or debate, but only people who will believe the way you do. Which makes me wonder, again, why you post here. Maybe I will end up agreeing with you, and maybe I won't. But until you either start giving actual arguments against Calvinism (not just what you think you don't like about it), or giving reasons for what you DO believe, then I guess we will never know.[/quote]

Ormly · Jun 4, 2009

Hammster said:
Is yours? It seems to me that you don't want discussion or debate, but only people who will believe the way you do. Which makes me wonder, again, why you post here. Maybe I will end up agreeing with you, and maybe I won't. But until you either start giving actual arguments against Calvinism (not just what you think you don't like about it), or giving reasons for what you DO believe, then I guess we will never know.

[/quote]

My mind is made up but not snapped shut because there is more to learn. God has been faithful me to teach me that I might progress in the process of becoming a son.

Calvinism, the knowledge of it as is demonstrated here, will not take you home to Father's House. Your are off the road and require a Spiritual tow truck to put you back on the highway that leads there. I know many who, for reasons I can't explain, set up a road side stands to preach the praises of the man in the tow truck instead of moving on down the road, getting on with the journey Home as purposed. . . .feeling content and happy, I guess, to be on the highway in the stand. That seems strange to me when there is so much in Christ to be realized. . . .after we are born again. . . .made to be on the highway.

I would only say that those who are consumed by Calvinisn have been so because they have ignored all scripture that refutes the claim of TULIP.

Let me ask this: Do you believe am saved?

Hammster · Jun 4, 2009

My mind is made up but not snapped shut because there is more to learn. God has been faithful me to teach me that I might progress in the process of becoming a son.

Same here. I would be stupid to believe I knew all I needed to know.

Calvinism, the knowledge of it as is demonstrated here, will not take you home to Father's House. Your are off the road and require a Spiritual tow truck to put you back on the highway that leads there. I know many who, for reasons I can't explain, set up a road side stands to preach the praises of the man in the tow truck instead of moving on down the road, getting on with the journey Home as purposed. . . .feeling content and happy, I guess, to be on the highway in the stand. That seems strange to me when there is so much in Christ to be realized. . . .after we are born again. . . .made to be on the highway.

Again, another claim without any backing. Just saying that Calvinism is wrong doesn't make it so. If you'd like, I can link to many sermons which show reformed preachers preaching on things other than salvation. In fact, probably a far majority of the sermons don't touch on salvation as the main point.

I would only say that those who are consumed by Calvinisn have been so because they have ignored all scripture that refutes the claim ~~of TULIP.~~

Such as (in context, please)?

Let me ask this: Do you believe am saved?

Click to expand...

I will assume that you are because you claim that you are, and I have no way to determine otherwise.

Ormly · Jun 4, 2009

Hammster said:
Same here. I would be stupid to believe I knew all I needed to know.

Then you must know what the process it all about. Are you in it?

[quot]Again, another claim without any backing.[/quote]

Whatta mean any backing? I didn't fall off a turnip truck to make this discovery. If it would take anyone home I would be in it. Ergo, the ideology is flawed. I know there is more. You guys don't even speak of never mind addressing it.

Just saying that Calvinism is wrong doesn't make it so.

I have sufficiently written my objections and the reasons why, if you are objective in your understanding that reveals the error, there shouldn't be any problem in understanding the evidence.

If you'd like, I can link to many sermons which show reformed preachers preaching on things other than salvation. In fact, probably a far majority of the sermons don't touch on salvation as the main point.

Please do. Link the ones that don't speak of self-effort in the mix. You all preach against self-effort in the mix so, it should be easy to find such a sermon.

Such as (in context, please)?

The Whole Bible as written, without Calvin commentary. Throw away the "study helps" written by Calvinist and begin to learn what it actually says. That goes for the modern translations as well since they also have the Calvin slant on things.

I will assume that you are because you claim that you are, and I have no way to determine otherwise.

You mean based upon my argument, you believe I am OK? Wonderful however, How can that be? Everything I have submitted you haven't agreed with. . .

MamaZ · Jun 4, 2009

Ormly said:
Absolutely! Joint-heir[ship with Christ to be understood as an impartation and not and imputation. . . .

Actually we are no joint heirs with Christ because we do anything. But because God has declared us rightous.. How does one have to do in order to be join heirs with Christ?

Ormly · Jun 4, 2009

MamaZ said:
Actually we are no joint heirs with Christ because we do anything. But because God has declared us rightous.. How does one have to do in order to be join heirs with Christ?

Learn the Father.

MamaZ · Jun 4, 2009

Ormly said:
Jesus is NOT the originator of our faith, Abraham is. Abraham is called, the father of [our] faith.

Anybody need scripture for that?

ONe more thing: It is NEVER a gift of salvation and I helped, but rather it is a gift of salvation and "I responded".

All of the scriptures reveal that.

OOPS! Forgot this note: JTB said that God had said that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit, not that He would give the Spirit.

And to you baptize means what? To dunk in water? Abraham is not the originator of our Faith.. Abraham cannot give faith to anyone. And just why did you respond?

Hammster · Jun 4, 2009

Ormly said:
Then you must know what the process it all about. Are you in it?

That is why I am here.

Whatta mean any backing? I didn't fall off a turnip truck to make this discovery. If it would take anyone home I would be in it. Ergo, the ideology is flawed. I know there is more. You guys don't even speak of never mind addressing it.

How do I know that you have a proper understanding of Reformed theology? You haven't yet demonstrated that you know what we are talking about.

I have sufficiently written my objections and the reasons why, if you are objective in your understanding that reveals the error, there shouldn't be any problem in understanding the evidence. Please do. Link the ones that don't speak of self-effort in the mix. You all preach against self-effort in the mix so, it should be easy to find such a sermon.

Are we talking salvation, or sanctification? Salvation requires no effort on man's part. Sanctification does.

The Whole Bible as written, without Calvin commentary. Throw away the "study helps" written by Calvinist and begin to learn what it actually says. That goes for the modern translations as well since they also have the Calvin slant on things.

Are you saying that you don't sit under anyone's teaching? You came up with this all by yourself? Does not the bible say that some are given as teachers? Isnt' this what you want to do...teach us? Kind of a double standard, isn't it? (BTW..i have never read Calvin)

You mean based upon my argument, you believe I am OK? Wonderful however, How can that be? Everything I have submitted you haven't agreed with. . .

Again, that statement right there shows that you do not understand what you say you are against. I, nor anyone that I am aware of, would say that you need to understand and agree with Calvinism to be saved.

For Your Information - Hunt Exposes Calvinism

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