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For Your Information - Hunt Exposes Calvinism

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Benefactor

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In case you have not caught on let me kindly inform you. I see Calvinism as false. Now, I have watched the clips and I do read and I firmly disagree with the conclusions they come to.

You Calvinist must maintain a method of interpretation to prop up the TULIP. I understand that. You see Dave Hunt as false so than means you would see me as false and I you as false. Why is that hard for you to understand?
 
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CmRoddy

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hahahahaha

No, let me be the first one here to say that you have not read anything pro-Calvinism. Why would I say this? It's simple really.

Because of the fact that you clearly misunderstand Calvinism. I have read your "arguments" against it both here and on CARM and they are nothing but the same type of strawman misrepresentations that we see from people like Norman Geisler, Dave Hunt, and George Bryson.

Do you really expect me to believe you when people like Dave Hunt have openly admitted to never reading any of the Reformers? Do you really have respect for men who would say something like that but still release a book condemning what the Reformers taught?
 
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Benefactor

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Let me paint the picture for you: To a Calvinist all who are not are laying. This kind of personal attack is normal from the Calvinist Camp, nothing new, it is what it is.

I do not accuse you of lying, just teaching your brand of the Christian religion, which I personally hold to be false. You make that choice to believe in the TULIP. I don't have a problem with you believe as you do. Calvinism is false doctrine. This is a firm statement against the TULIP not you as you have against me.

Everything about the TULIP is false, in my opinion.

You may find the following article interesting:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=34654
 
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drstevej

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You are welcome to your opinion as is Dave Hunt. However, the title of the OP remains unsubstantiated. I once rejected Calvinism too but I kept reading the Bible.
 
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heymikey80

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Benefactor said:
YouTube - What Love is This? (Pt. 5/9)
Click to expand...
He said Augustine declared "you will agree or else".

Augustine did nothing of the sort.

And then he said Augustine thought everyone should be in the church.

Which is it?

The attack on Calvin as a product of his time is hilarious. He's speaking to a bunch of people who've engaged in the very hypocrisy Christ threw out of God's favor in the past, threw out of the temple, accused of hypocrisy, called them blind, false guides. Interesting what'll be said of Hunt's hypocrisy in 500 years. In point of fact the punishments and deaths in Geneva paled in comparison with the destruction occurring under both the Lutheran princes and under Rome.

You've indeed got two choices: either a universal love of the kind God has never shown to the religious hypocrite or unrepentant sinner, or a love God has shown, based on His Own favor, not based on our works.

Oh, and by the way, God will ultimately damn millions or billions of people under Hunt's theology, too. The canard of there being an exclusion of free choice in Calvinism is again, another error of Hunt in not recognizing what Calvinists actually believe.

The guy's not saying virtually anything with truth in it about Calvinists.

It's downright clear Hunt isn't saying God loves everyone to the point of saving them. So for many of the criticisms, Dave Hunt is actually hoist by his own petard.

It's just a catastrophe of misstatements and falsehoods, even to the point of self-destruction of his own position.
 
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CmRoddy

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haha

OK, buddy, listen closely to what I said. I never accused you of lying about your theology; I accused you of lying about having read and understood Calvinist theology. I think anyone in a discussion with you will see that.

So you can twist my words all you want, but it just comes to show that you do the same with Scripture.

Benefactor said:
Everything about the TULIP is false, in my opinion.
Click to expand...


Everything? So man isn't spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1)? God doesn't choose based on the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:5)? Christ didn't die for His sheep (John 10:11)? Are not all that are given to Christ going to Christ (John 6:37)? Will all that are called be justified and glorified (Rom. 8:30)?

Benefactor said:
Yoy may find the following article interesting:

FrontPage Magazine - Caribbean Calvinists for Socialism
Click to expand...

Ah yes, let's judge a theological system based on its abuse. If you want to go that low I could show you what Charles Finney and his "decisional regeneration" has done to Christianity in this country (which is far more profound then "socialism" supported by supposed Calvinists) but I won't; I could show abuse and curruption in the church all throughout its history (which would effect both your position and mine) but I won't.

This is a useless argument.
 
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Benefactor

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drstevej said:
You are welcome to your opinion as is Dave Hunt. However, the title of the OP remains unsubstantiated. I once rejected Calvinism too but I kept reading the Bible.
Click to expand...

You are what you are, a Calvinist, and Calvinism has yet to be substantiated.

Calvinist here is the error, not God's word. Continue to study and perhaps you will forsake the false teaching you have embraced.
 
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CmRoddy

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Benefactor said:
You are what you are, a Calvinist, and Calvinism has yet to be substantiated.

Calvinist here is the error, not God's word. Continue to study and perhaps you will forsake the false teaching you have embraced.
Click to expand...

I find it amazing that you have the nerve to say "Calvinism has yet to be substantiated" when you have obviously never read any book by a Calvinist and when you have never substantiated anything you believe with Scripture. This has yet to happen here or on CARM.
 
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Benefactor

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.
 
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THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN
(1 Timothy 4:10)

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Timothy 4:10).
There are those who teach that God has provided salvation only for those who are His elect. They would also teach a limited atonement, that Christ died on the cross only for the sins of God's elect [those who will believe on Christ and be saved]. Such false teaching is answered by the verse cited above. This verse teaches that there is a sense in which God is the Saviour of all men and there is a special sense ("especially") in which God is the Saviour of those who believe. Timothy should have had no problem understanding this because Paul had already written in this same epistle that there is a sense in which God is the Saviour of all. He is the Saviour of all men because He desires all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:3-4) and because Christ died for all men (1 Tim. 2:6). Paul also made it clear that there is a special sense in which He is the Saviour of those who come to God through Christ and who believe and know the truth (1 Tim. 2:4; 4:3).
Extreme Calvinists have a problem with this verse because the expression "all men" must here be understood as referring to all humanity without exception. The verse teaches that out of that large class of people referred to as "all men" there is a smaller class of people referred to as "those who believe." It is therefore obvious that the "all men" describes a group of people that includes more than just those who believe (more than "the elect"). He is the Saviour of all men. He is "especially" the Saviour of believers (in a special sense that is not true those who are not believers).
The expression "all men" is also found in 1 Timothy 2:4. Extreme Calvinists tells us that in this verse the "all men" means "all sorts of persons" (see Jay Adams' translation). They say that it refers to all men without distinction but not all men without exception. Thus in 1 Timothy 2:4 they understand the "all men" to refer, not to all humanity, but to "the elect" which would include elect Jews and Gentiles, elect men and women, elect slaves and freemen, etc. In other words, according to their theology, God does not desire to save all men without exception, but God desires to save only His elect who belong to all kinds of classes of people (God's elect are among the rich, the poor, the Jews, the Gentiles, etc.). This is forcing the text to fit one's theology. We simply must let the verse say what it says: "God will have (desires) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Indeed, God proved His desire for their salvation by sending Christ to die for them (1 Tim. 2:6)!
The extreme Calvinist must find a way to get around the clear statement of 1 Timothy 4:10. Jay Adams has tried to do this in a unique way in his translation: "who is the Saviour of all sorts of men, that is, of those who believe." The problem with this is that the word "especially" cannot be translated "that is." Adams is desperately trying to force the verse to fit his theology, even at the cost of abandoning sound principles of translation and ignoring the obvious meaning of words.
How then do extreme Calvinists explain this verse? They usually argue that the term "Saviour" is used in a temporal and not an eternal sense, meaning that God is the Preserver of all men or the Deliverer of all men, especially of those who believe. This runs contrary to all the standard translations (NASB,NIV,RSV,ASV,NEB, etc.) which render the word "Saviour" and not "Preserver." Also their view raises this problem: Does God really preserve believers in a temporal, physical way more than He does unbelievers? Often God lets the wicked prosper and the righteous suffer in this life. Christ promised His followers persecution, tribulation and even death at the hands of unbelievers. The truth is that they who believe are likely to undergo great difficulty in this world. Believers must suffer through natural disasters (floods, tornados, fire, etc.) just as unbelievers. It is true that there is spiritual help and comfort for believers even in the midst of their trials, but in what sense are believers preserved physically and temporally in a very special sense that is not true of unbelievers? Often unbelievers seem to be well-preserved in this life, whereas believers are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things (1 Cor. 4:13).
It is true that sometimes the verb "save" is used in different ways, and it does not always mean salvation from sin. 1 Timothy 2:15 speaks of the Christian woman being saved from satanic deception (compare 1 Tim. 5:14-15). Also 1 Timothy 4:16 is likewise speaking of being saved from Satanic deception (compare 4:1), but this is not a good parallel to the verse under discussion because obviously Satanic deception is not the issue in 1 Timothy 4:10.
It is helpful to ask this: How does Paul use the expression "God our Saviour"? The term "Saviour" is applied to God in several other places beside 1 Timothy 4:10. See Luke 1:47; 1 Timothy 1:1; 2:3; Titus 1:3; 2:10; 3:4; and Jude 25. Will anyone venture to say that in these seven texts the meaning is "God the Preserver," referring to temporal and not to eternal benefits?
The last place Paul used this term is very significant. It is found in 1 Timothy 2:3 (and see also 2:4 where "all men" is used). God is the Saviour of all men in the sense that He desires all men to be saved and Christ died for all (1 Tim. 2:4,6). The verse clearly refers to eternal salvation. The ASV understands 1 Timothy 4:10 in this way because in the marginal reference it gives these two verses: 1 Timothy 2:4 and John 4:42.
Is it a problem to say that God is the Saviour of all men? Only to the extreme Calvinists who say that the Saviour's work on the cross had nothing to do with those who are not elect. The Bible speaks of God being "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14) and yet it is obvious that the world will not all be saved. The vast majority of those who make up "world" will perish because of their unbelief and rejection of God's Saviour (John 3:16-18). And yet we must ask, how can the world reject Him as Saviour if He is not in some sense the world's Saviour? How can a person reject the gospel if Christ did not die for him (compare 1 Cor. 15:1-4)? What is the good news that he is rejecting? The extreme Calvinist has no good news for anyone but the elect. You cannot reject something that is not genuinely offered to you. If there is no gospel offered to the "non-elect," then how can they reject the gospel?
Why did Paul strive so diligently and why was he willing to suffer reproach as he labored in the gospel? Paul knew that he had a message for all men—a message of hope, a message of good news, a message of reconciliation. He also knew that as this message went forth it would be gladly received by some. There would be those who would believe and be actually saved. Note the similar motivation expressed by Paul in 2 Timothy 2:10. Paul was willing to endure all things for the sake of the elect, so that they might obtain the salvation that is found in Christ (not just so that they might have temporal and physical deliverance). Paul knew that God was using his gospel preaching (as he proclaimed the good news of Christ and His death on the cross to all men) as a means by which God would bring the elect to faith in Christ. Without preaching there can be no faith (Rom. 10:14-17). Paul was willing to suffer and labour and pray toward this end.
"His will is that all men should be saved, and He has made full and sufficient provision for the salvation of all, so that, as far as salvation stands in Him, He is the Saviour of all men...if God be thus willing for all to be saved, how much more shall He save them that put their trust in Him" (Alford). "While God is potentially Saviour of all, He is actually Saviour of the believers. So Jesus is termed `Saviour of the World' (John 4:42)" (A.T.Robertson). "He has a general good-will to the eternal salvation of all men thus far that He is not willing that any should perish...He desires not the death of sinners; He is thus the Saviour of all men" (Matthew Henry).
Those who take this verse at face value cannot be in danger of teaching universalism. If God were to actually save all men, then how would believers be saved in a special sense? The very fact that the verse says that there is a special sense in which believers are saved implies that there is a sense in which unbelievers are not saved. Unbelievers are not actually saved, even though God the Saviour has desired their salvation and provided for it in the death of His Son. May we joyfully carry the gospel to all men, telling them that there is a Saviour for them who has died for them! May we urge them to receive this One who came to be their Saviour. "I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:10-12).
George Zeller (revised March 2000; October 2003)
 
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heymikey80

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Benefactor said:
Extreme Calvinists have a problem with this verse because the expression "all men" must here be understood as referring to all humanity without exception.
Click to expand...
And if you remember we were telling you that based on this interpretation, first of all (says the Scripture) God wants you to pray for all humanity without exception.

Why? Well, because that's what the Scripture must say in Zeller's (and thus I conclude, your?) interpretation:
I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men 1 Tim 2:1
​
And if I remember we were awaiting you to finish the prayer list of every person without exception. Not generally, but without exception. Because to do less would be to neglect Scripture's "first of all", and "for all men" without exception. In your interpretation, of course. Not in ours.

We Calvinists, we realize that "all men" is meant generally, not specifically or individually, not to each and every person without exception. Why? Well, it makes nonsense of 1 Tim 2:1, of course. But it also rips the verse out of its moorings.

As for your proffered interpretation of how Calvinists view this verse, no dice. Too many errors to count.

What's this about characterizing "Extreme Calvinists", anyway? I could of course point out numerous dispensationalists with utterly wacky views of verses, and attempt to tar you with them. You "Extreme Dispensationalists" are quite vulnerable to the charge, leaping to eschatology to throw people out of the church.

But what's that?

An ad hominem attack. It's simply poor thinking.

And I'm annoyed with people trying to paint me this way probably as much as you'd be annoyed with people trying to paint you that way.
 
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nill

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Benefactor said:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7364936/#post51587616
Click to expand...

Benefactor,

Really. ........really.



There's no "exposing" of Calvinism, because Calvinists aren't even trying to hide anything. If you look up the explanation of their beliefs (try the names of these canons/confessions/catechisms: Dordt, Westminster, Heidelberg, etc.), then you can find out what they actually believe, and then you can specifically build an argument against them.

For instance, in the Canons of Dordt: go to the very end. See where it says, "Rejections of False Accusations" in the Conclusion? Just some 4 or 5 small paragraphs. Maybe you can start with one of those. And then not make a post like one of these again, where you just post a billion videos and proclaim that the entire foundation of the doctrines of grace has been destroyed.
 
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student ad x

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Benefactor

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The doctrine of Calvinism is false teaching, it does not agree with the Scripture, therefore it is false.
 
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Benefactor

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The Process of Salvation

Regeneration and the language of “SALVATION”, how is one saved, or “what must I do to be saved” according to Scripture.

What does regeneration mean? New birth

The Greek word for regeneration is only found in two N. T. passages, Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. This regeneration will take place at the beginning of the millennial kingdom, and speaks about change in the earth as Christ rules and reigns in Jerusalem. If you do not hold to this view of the end times and believe in only a second coming then eternity this verse would apply to that position too for it is a solid verse that points to the time of the second coming regardless of eschatology. What we are establishing here is that this particular regeneration is not associated with the new birth of a lost person, salvation in Christ.

According to Titus 3:5 salvation is by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. We know that regeneration means new birth. If we only had this verse that addressed salvation we could conclude that faith is not necessary in the process, but that is not the case.

Titus 3: 5. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit;

2 Thessalonians 2:13. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2 Thessalonians further defines the salvation of a person. Notice that the person saved is describe as someone chosen from a beginning. Wherever you place the beginning is not the important point in this verse, but the process. If you see “beginning” as prior to creation or within creation the beginning is not the truth being expressed by this verse, salvation is the central teaching of the verse. Titus 3:5 tells us salvation is by the washing of regeneration and renewing and 2 Thess. 2:13 salvation is by sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth. Now we have a broader understanding of the salvation of people. The Holy Spirit regenerates, renews and sanctifies unto salvation by faith in the truth. This would be the clear conclusion of these two verses. Briefly, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us what Titus 3:5 assumes the readers understands, salvation is through or by sanctification by the Spirit and (by) faith in the truth.
1. Salvation is by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit Titus 3:5
2 Salvation is by sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, 2 Thess. 2:13

Also, it can be concluded that “He saved us …..by the washing of regeneration (new birth) and renewing by the Holy Spirit” which is synonymous with “God has chosen you …for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit”, not to exclude “and (by) faith in the truth.” The point here is that regeneration, renewing and sanctification are descriptions of what new birth is. When a person is saved he is regenerated, renewed and sanctified. They all happen at the same time and are the “elements” of true conversion.

Read carefully Acts 26:16:

Acts 26:16. 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you (PAUL) a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; 17. rescuing you from the {Jewish} people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, (Paul) 18. to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me. Paul is witnessing to people about the gospel and all the benefits that are given to the one believing is by faith in Christ.

We know from:
1. Salvation is by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit Titus 3:5
2 Salvation is by sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, 2 Thess. 2:13

Therefore Acts 26:16, 17 and 18 is telling us that Paul is responsible to witness to the Gentiles and in doing so by his witness for Christ to open their eyes so that they may turn form sin and receive forgiveness of sins and be sanctified by faith in Christ. We know that salvation is described as regeneration, renewing and sanctification by the Spirit all by faith in the truth. Acts 26:16 clearly tells us that forgiveness of sins and an inheritance (equivalent to salvation) belongs to those who by faith in Christ are sanctified. This agrees with Titus 3:5 and 2 Thess. 2:13. Therefore we now have three verses that teach salvation is by faith and this salvation experience is described as regeneration, renewing and sanctification, and now forgiveness of sins and an inheritance. To say it another way one’s faith in “Me” Christ results in regeneration, renewing, sanctification, forgiveness of sins, and an inheritance, again all this by faith in Christ.
 
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