For whom He foreknew

zoidar · Jul 7, 2023

atpollard said:
God chooses, God saves, God preserves.

Man chooses, man takes the gift of salvation, man perseveres.

See the difference?

Ok? How about:

Man asks, God saves, God and man preserve.

atpollard · Jul 7, 2023

zoidar said:
Ok? How about:

Man asks, God saves, God and man preserve.

You stepped over the question at the core of the Monergism/Synergism question ... WHY does man ask?
[Is it "of man" free will choice, or is it "of God" predestination?]

I am not one to sling mud unjustly by claiming "synergism" is "Pelagianism", but "free will" IS "Synergism" if man has the power to decide his eternal fate.
The "Call" is universal but the "Response" is not (just a fact). "WHY?" is the theological question that men have sought to answer by gleaning scripture for hints:
- (a hint) John 6:44 [NASB20] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
- (another hint) Matthew 23:37 [NASB20] "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."
- Thus, there is no final resolution to the question.

Carl Emerson · Jul 7, 2023

atpollard said:
The "Call" is universal but the "Response" is not

Really ???

How does that stack up against "Many are called but few aare chosen" ???

Carl Emerson · Jul 7, 2023

What I fail to understand is this.

When life itself and all we are enabled to do comes from Him - every breath, the ability to think, the ability to feel, the power to act, the very ability to be....

How then can we attribute a future destination to ourselves?

How would this not be arrogant and prideful?

John Mullally · Jul 7, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Yes... His Love goes out to all, but not all accept...

This was a pretty strong statement... "Your doctrine denies God's saving power and love..."

Which indicates you don't understand my position on the matter.

Would you like to snip the following verses out of your bible ???

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will...

Revelation 13:8
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Foundation of the World: All statements referencing “before the foundation of the world” are made with respect to Christ (John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20), while all statements referencing “from the foundation of the world” are made with respect to man, moving us forward from a previous point of reference in Genesis. (Matthew 25:34; Luke 11:50; Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8).

From before “foundation of the world” implies something prior to Genesis, whereas something “from” the foundation of the world (as the verse states) implies something from Genesis to present, as can be demonstrated from Luke 11:50-51: “‘…the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah….’” In other words, “since the foundation of the world” signifies the time from Abel to Zechariah (i.e. from Genesis). Otherwise, the blood of Abel would have been spilt from before he was born, that is, from before the foundation of the world, which is obviously incorrect.

Ephesians 1:3-5: The book of Ephesians was written to the "faithful in Christ" per Ephesians 1:1. Therefore, to better understand the book, I like to substitute the "faithful in Christ" wherever sees "us", "we", or "you" in that book. If you do that, you will see that the "faithful in Christ" are predestined for all spiritual blessings.

zoidar · Jul 7, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
What I fail to understand is this.

When life itself and all we are enabled to do comes from Him - every breath, the ability to think, the ability to feel, the power to act, the very ability to be....

How then can we attribute a future destination to ourselves?

Concening Heaven, we can not! We attribute it to God. It's a gift from God.

Carl Emerson said:
How would this not be arrogant and prideful?

zoidar · Jul 7, 2023

atpollard said:
You stepped over the question at the core of the Monergism/Synergism question ... WHY does man ask?
[Is it "of man" free will choice, or is it "of God" predestination?]

Is free will playing a part? I believe so. Does it have to be predetermined to be the work of God (a work in us through God the Holy Spirit)? I don't see the two choices you present as the only possible options.

atpollard said:
I am not one to sling mud unjustly by claiming "synergism" is "Pelagianism", but "free will" IS "Synergism" if man has the power to decide his eternal fate.

This is not a yes/no answer. It's IMO more complicated. It depends what you mean by free will. Can a sinner by his own willpower repent and turn to God. I don't think so, because he doesn't want to unless being convicted by the Holy Spirit. But I believe there are situations when a sinner is able to turn to God, but chooses to harden his heart by free will choice instead. To give a perfect answer I can not, but I like the Lutheran saying: "If you are saved it is because of God. If you are not, it's because of yourself." It not a complete answer, but I think it sheds some light on this topic.

atpollard said:
The "Call" is universal but the "Response" is not (just a fact). "WHY?" is the theological question that men have sought to answer by gleaning scripture for hints:

(a hint) John 6:44 [NASB20] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

(another hint) Matthew 23:37 [NASB20] "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

Thus, there is no final resolution to the question.

I like this part of your answer. Thanks!

atpollard · Jul 7, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Really ???

How does that stack up against "Many are called but few are chosen" ???

Really.

When the gospel is preached, the WORD OF GOD goes out to anyone and everyone within range of hearing. I have yet to encounter a Billy Graham crusade where he proclaims the gospel, but suddenly stops, points to a group of people in the audience and says "except you ... the Gospel does not apply to that group in Row 4, section F. So please disregard John 3:16, you are not qualified to be part of whosoever".

However, even though THOUSANDS heard the exact same words from the exact same speaker, all of those thousands did not have the exact same response. See Acts 2 for Luke recording this reality from Peter speaking.

Thus we (Christians) shout out to ALL, and most respond one way and a few respond another. That just IS. It even WAS for Jesus (if the Gospel accounts are to be believed). Jesus preached to a CROWD and got multiple reactions to the exact same words.

How it reconciles with "Many are called but few are chosen" is a question that each must answer to their own satisfaction. Many will disagree with whatever opinion you hold. For me, the answer is "Monergism" ... PEOPLE are given the task of broadcasting the "seed" (word of God) to all ... but only God (Father who 'foreknew', Son who delivers, Spirit that illuminates) causes the seed to grow in us.
YMMV

Lost Witness · Jul 7, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
How would this not be arrogant and prideful?

Trying to figure this out?
Should we not think he'll finish what he started?
Were I to go forward thinking I was going to hell -
Would that be a lack of faith in his promise that he would never like wise cast one of his out?
Or should we go forward believing his promises in humility and seeking to serve him and let him use us to free others as well?
Also would I go forward for that matter at all if I accepted that I wasn't going to make it?
The LORD knows the destination and who's written in his book we don't.
Think it's a matter of being humble and grateful for being Born Again in the first place and enduring with humility and thankfulness.

This is how I hope to be able to move forward..
Please explain.

May The LORD Bless You and Keep You

Carl Emerson · Jul 7, 2023

atpollard said:
Really.

When the gospel is preached, the WORD OF GOD goes out to anyone and everyone within range of hearing. I have yet to encounter a Billy Graham crusade where he proclaims the gospel, but suddenly stops, points to a group of people in the audience and says "except you ... the Gospel does not apply to that group in Row 4, section F. So please disregard John 3:16, you are not qualified to be part of whosoever".

However, even though THOUSANDS heard the exact same words from the exact same speaker, all of those thousands did not have the exact same response. See Acts 2 for Luke recording this reality from Peter speaking.

Thus we (Christians) shout out to ALL, and most respond one way and a few respond another. That just IS. It even WAS for Jesus (if the Gospel accounts are to be believed). Jesus preached to a CROWD and got multiple reactions to the exact same words.

How it reconciles with "Many are called but few are chosen" is a question that each must answer to their own satisfaction. Many will disagree with whatever opinion you hold. For me, the answer is "Monergism" ... PEOPLE are given the task of broadcasting the "seed" (word of God) to all ... but only God (Father who 'foreknew', Son who delivers, Spirit that illuminates) causes the seed to grow in us.
YMMV

The point I was trying to make was missed.

You said "The "Call" is universal but the "Response" is not...

Your choice of the words intimated that in using the word 'response' that It was a man centred action.

Whereas the Scripture speaks of His Choosing not ours.

zoidar · Jul 8, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
The point I was trying to make was missed.

You said "The "Call" is universal but the "Response" is not...

Your choice of the words intimated that in using the word 'response' that It was a man centred action.

Whereas the Scripture speaks of His Choosing not ours.

Are you an Amyraldian? You hold to unlimited atonement?

Carl Emerson · Jul 8, 2023

Frankly I was not familiar with the label, I am not really into labels...

But yes it seems that pretty much aligns with my position at this point.

atpollard · Jul 8, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
The point I was trying to make was missed.

You said "The "Call" is universal but the "Response" is not...

Your choice of the words intimated that in using the word 'response' that It was a man centred action.

Whereas the Scripture speaks of His Choosing not ours.

I am a Baptist … we try to tolerate our Christian brothers that the Spirit has yet to illuminate to the glory of MONERGISM by accommodating both “Particular” and “General” redemption (atonement) wherever possible. It allows Particular (Calvinist) Baptists and General (Wesleyan) Baptists to worship together in the same church (local body of believers) by allowing for “Individual Soul Liberty” (a Baptist Distinctive).

atpollard · Jul 8, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Your choice of the words intimated that in using the word 'response' that It was a man centred action.

Whereas the Scripture speaks of His Choosing not ours.

Clearly I agree that God does the choosing and not man. (I am a Particular Baptist)
Let me ask a question about your observation on the word “response”.

Response (definition): “something constituting a reply or a reaction”

Who or what “replies or takes action” (responds) to “the Call”?

Does God respond to the call?
Does man respond to the call?

IMHO, God already prepared the heart (as Lydia) so it is the person that responds with repentance.

John Mullally · Jul 8, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
The point I was trying to make was missed.

You said "The "Call" is universal but the "Response" is not...

Your choice of the words intimated that in using the word 'response' that It was a man centred action.

Whereas the Scripture speaks of His Choosing not ours.

If God is in the business of making our choices for us, as a Christian I wish He would make the choice that we never sin again. After all that is also God's stated desire in His word.

Carl Emerson · Jul 8, 2023

atpollard said:
Clearly I agree that God does the choosing and not man. (I am a Particular Baptist)
Let me ask a question about your observation on the word “response”.

Response (definition): “something constituting a reply or a reaction”

Who or what “replies or takes action” (responds) to “the Call”?

Does God respond to the call?

Does man respond to the call?

IMHO, God already prepared the heart (as Lydia) so it is the person that responds with repentance.

Yes but repentance is a gift.

Carl Emerson · Jul 8, 2023

John Mullally said:
If God is in the business of making our choices for us, as a Christian I wish He would make the choice that we never sin again. After all that is also God's stated desire in His word.

The Choosing is specific to Salvation.

He is not generally in the business of making choices for us.

However His Spirit of the Fear of the Lord stops us from choosing a course of action that might result in loosing salvation.

John Mullally · Jul 8, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
The Choosing is specific to Salvation.

He is not generally in the business of making choices for us.

However His Spirit of the Fear of the Lord stops us from choosing a course of action that might result in loosing salvation.

Calvin taught that God makes all our choices. So from what you said I take it that neither of us are Calvinists.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

So why would God only override our response to the preaching Gospel - which is the power of God to salvation to those who believe (Romans 1:16)?

Carl Emerson · Jul 8, 2023

Yes, I do believe that Salvation (being born again) comes to the Chosen. However limited free will kicks in from there, and our obedience determines our eternal reward.

Folks tend to confuse these two different issues.

Lastly I believe Salvation is sealed by the indwelling presence of the Fear of the Lord. (Jer 32:40)

Not really sure I understand your last question re Rom 1:6

atpollard · Jul 8, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Yes but repentance is a gift.

Verse please?

[Act 2:38 NASB20] 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[Act 10:45 NASB20] 45 All the Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles.

Holy Spirit is a gift.

[Rom 3:24 NASB20] 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

Justification is a gift.

[Rom 5:15-17 NASB20] 15 But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many. 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [offense,] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the gracious gift [arose] from many offenses, resulting in justification. 17 For if by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Righteousness is a gift.

[Rom 6:23 NASB20] 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal Life is a gift.

[Eph 2:8 NASB20] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this [is] not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;

(this one is tricky because the ‘gift’ is gender neutral in the Greek) “saved by grace through faith” is a gift.

[Eph 3:7 NASB20] 7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
[Eph 4:7 NASB20] 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.

Grace is a gift.

[1Pe 4:10 NASB20] 10 As each one has received a [special] gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the multifaceted grace of God.

Each one has a “special” (unique?) gift.

For whom He foreknew

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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Ezekiel 3:3 ("Change")

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