For those who disagree with the Word of Faith Doctrine - civil explaination is asked

[JimB]

Balance, is this accepted WOF doctrine among all WOF’ers? Who formulated this statement of faith? Is there a link to it?

I did not know that there was such a thing as a generally accepted statement of faith for WOF to which all WOF’ers subscribe.

~Jim

" God did not die for man because of some value perceived in him. He loved us not because we are lovable, but because He is love." ~C.S. Lewis​

 

[lismore]

Hello there

I agree with several WOF ideas I have picked up through various Kenneth Hagin books etc, but also struggle with some other WOF ideas. On the whole the movement has had a good effect on the church in bringing healing and prosperity back to the mainstream.

But from what I have seen and from having been in a WOF oriented church for the last 8+ years there are several difficulties with the way WOF is presented or is seen to be presented (in my experience).

WOF folks (in my experience) can be perceived as triumphalist and surreal. Especially in the 'act as if' or 'positive confession' extremes, if the things confessed for do not materialise or if the things cannot be faced.

Example: Financial difficulties in a positive confession church.

The preacher knows that he cant talk negative to admit the difficulties and indeed claims 400 times daily that wealth and riches are in his house. But the church is struggling and urgently needs more money. He cant admit that the church is struggling because that would be negative confession but spends much more than the church can afford.

He gives sermon after sermon saying how well the church is doing, then angrily (through worry and insecurity) privately cajoles members for more tithes.

Perception: A greedy or incompetent pastor.

Result: Members leave after the treasure presents the statement of accounts.

Reality: A struggling church that needs to jetison 'positive confession' and get in touch with reality. Tell the truth, not a positive spin, but the truth to members and they will give.

Thats my experience.

 

[rushingwind62]

First of all let me say, I respect WoF'ers and have nothing against ya'll at all. I use to be WoF years ago but have since gone to non denom. My problem was in the churches I was involved with there was much division. I had been apart of 3 church splits and they were all WoF. So rather than to keep going through that I chose to go to non denom. Yeah they have their problems too, all denoms do. For the most part I agree with the doctrines of WoF, but there is one that troubles me and it has to do with healing. I do believe God heals, don't get me wrong. But I believe there are differents methods to God's healing. Such as I beleieve He uses doctors and medication to heal. Often in the WoF denom that is not accepted. And the churches I was a part of said if you were sick you had a lack of faith, This deeply troubled me and is part of the reason I left WoF. I am very content where I am now and feel closer to God than I ever have. I know many find there home in the WoF denom and I am happy for those of you who do. We are all a part of the body of Christ and I believe that most denom have there place in the body, so long as they meet one requirement. And that is that they believe and accept Jesus as the Son of God who died for all of us. May God Bless you all richly!!!

 

[New_Wineskin]

Specific Word of Faith Beliefs​

6. We are new creatures made righteous with Christ's righteousness, and it is not of ourselves. We are not unworthy new creatures or sinners saved by grace. We were sinners but now we are saved by grace. (Rom 10:10; 1 Cor 1:30; 2 Cor 5:17; 2 Cor 5:21; Phil 3:9)​

So here are 12 tenants that earmark the Word of Faith.
Then at the bottom of your post, please list how many of the beliefs you ARE in agreement with.

I think you will find we agree consistently on 10 of 12.

As far as section 1 is concerned , I won't comment since they are simply variations of traditions handed down from 500 to 1700 years and not really WOF only . If I commented on them , it would not help in keeping the thread on its title .

With respect to section 2 , I agree with number 6 above .

 

[Always in His Presence]

Balance, is this accepted WOF doctrine among all WOF’ers? Who formulated this statement of faith? Is there a link to it?

I did not know that there was such a thing as a generally accepted statement of faith for WOF to which all WOF’ers subscribe.

~Jim

http://christianforums.com/t5882271-word-of-faith-forum-rules.html

Sorry you missed the OP - here it is for your convenience - the link above is the forum rules in Word of Faith - it's what all the Word of Faith people ON THIS FORUM agreed to.

Here is the OP:

Ok, I'm making this attempt at some civil discourse.

Here is the Word of Faith Doctrinal stance as presented on this forum.

Section I: WE BELIEVE...

Concerning the Godhead, WE BELIEVE
We believe in the one, true God. Our God is manifested in three separate, distinct, eternal Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (Spirit); these three are one (Deut. 6:4; Phil. 2:6; 1 John 5:7). God the Father is greater than all; the Sender of the Word (Logos) and the Begetter (John 14:28; John 16:28; John 1:14). The Son is the Word made flesh, the One Begotten, and has existed with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1; John 1:18; John 1:14). The Holy Ghost (Spirit) proceeds from the Father, is sent forth by the Son, and testifies of Him (Jesus) (John 14:16; John 15:26).
​

Concerning the Scriptures, WE BELIEVE
All scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished, to every good work. The Holy Spirit moved on the prophets and apostles of old to pen the holy scriptures. We fully affirm that all scripture, comprised of the 66 Books of the Bible (no apocrypha) from Genesis to Revelation, is our final authority over all else for determining faith and practice, and do not accept man's opinion, denominational doctrines, or any other document as equal to or above in authority to the scriptures (2 Tim 3:16-17; 1 Thess 2:13; 2 Peter 1:21; Ps 138:2).
​

Concerning Salvation, WE BELIEVE
We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Rom 3:23). We believe that by grace we are saved through faith, salvation can not be obtained through works, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Eph 2:8; John 14:6; Acts 4:12).
​

We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3; Rom 5:8).​

We believe that when we repent, confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, that we are now justified by his blood, and shall be saved from wrath through Him (Luke 13:5; Rom 10:9-13; Rom 5:9).​

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when we have received the free gift of salvation, we become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Heb 7:27; Rom 3:21-22;2 Cor 5:17).​

The Bible teaches that without holiness no man can see the Lord. We believe in the Doctrine of Sanctification as a definite, yet progressive work of grace, commencing at the time of regeneration and continuing until the consummation of salvation at Christ's return. As Christians, we believe if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (Heb 12:14; 1 Thess 5:23; 2 Peter 3:18; 2 Cor 3:18; Phil 3:12-14; 1 Cor 1:30, 1 John 1:9).​

The angels said to Jesus' disciples, "...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven." His coming is imminent. When He comes, "...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years.(Acts 1:11; 1 Thess 4:16-17; Rev 5:10, 20:6).​

We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice have no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. They are eternally lost in the lake of fire, which is literal, along with the devil, his demons, Hell and Death. (Matt 25:41, 46; Heb 9:27, Rev. 20:10-14, 21:6-8).​

Concerning the Holy Spirit, WE BELIEVE
The Baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire is a gift from God as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ to all believers in this dispensation and is received separately from the new birth. This experience is accompanied by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Holy Spirit Himself gives utterance (Matt 3:11; John 14:16-17; Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38-39; Acts 19:1-7; Acts 2:1-4).
​

We believe there are diversities of operations of the Spirit working in every member of the Body of Christ today for the common good. These operations are the work of one and the same Spirit dividing to every man severally as He will. (1 Cor 12:8-11).​

Concerning divine healing, WE BELIEVE
Healing is for the total person; body, soul, and spirit, and is wrought by the power of God. It is provided for in the atonement of Christ, and is the privilege of every member of the Body of Christ today who will receive by faith. (James 5:14-15; Mark 16:18; Isa 53:4-5; Matt 8:17; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Cor 12:9; 1 Cor 11:24-30; Acts 19:11-12).
​

Concerning water baptism, WE BELIEVE
We are directly commanded by our Lord to be baptized in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Baptism in water is by immersion. It is for believers only and does not save a person. Thus we do not believe that intercession on our behalf achieves either salvation or baptism, nor do we recognize infant baptism or baptism for the dead. This ordinance is a symbol of the Christian's identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Matt. 28:19; Rom 6:4; Rom 10:9-10; Luke 13:3; Col 2:12; Acts 8:36-39).
​

 

[Trish1947]

Hello there

I agree with several WOF ideas I have picked up through various Kenneth Hagin books etc, but also struggle with some other WOF ideas. On the whole the movement has had a good effect on the church in bringing healing and prosperity back to the mainstream.

But from what I have seen and from having been in a WOF oriented church for the last 8+ years there are several difficulties with the way WOF is presented or is seen to be presented (in my experience).

WOF folks (in my experience) can be perceived as triumphalist and surreal. Especially in the 'act as if' or 'positive confession' extremes, if the things confessed for do not materialise or if the things cannot be faced.

Example: Financial difficulties in a positive confession church.

The preacher knows that he cant talk negative to admit the difficulties and indeed claims 400 times daily that wealth and riches are in his house. But the church is struggling and urgently needs more money. He cant admit that the church is struggling because that would be negative confession but spends much more than the church can afford.

He gives sermon after sermon saying how well the church is doing, then angrily (through worry and insecurity) privately cajoles members for more tithes.

Perception: A greedy or incompetent pastor.

Result: Members leave after the treasure presents the statement of accounts.

Reality: A struggling church that needs to jetison 'positive confession' and get in touch with reality. Tell the truth, not a positive spin, but the truth to members and they will give.

Thats my experience.

Can we say some people in Wof church believe....Not all. My take on this is. You can confess all day long with your mouth, but until faith comes to the heart of a person, nothing is going to happen. Confession is more a choice to order our speech in accordance with what the Word of God says about it. You are in agreement with God by saying so. As far as denying circumstances exist, is not true, no matter who you heard say it. Why would there be the need for faith if no circumstances exist? We just choose to believe God, above the circumstances.

 

[Kebisoni]

Interesting - thanks Balance. OK, on this basis I am not Wof (though would say I am in my own way) - and we do disagree on a couple of points, baptism and some other minor points too......but we agree on a lot more, as you say.

I've learnt to be very happy with others believing differently to me, I only need to make sure I am OK with God, and respect that God created people and not robots. Robots would be programmed to all believe exactly the same - people are far more complicated and creative, you can't programme them or force them to accept ideas, you can only provide companionship for the journey, hope to offer a little direction now and again, and refreshment when they are tired. And I praise God for that - and respect that God allows us to walk different paths to the same destination. There may also be seasons of our lives where one path has more wisdom for us than another.

I am sure that I try to live my life by the spirit of Wof if not by the law.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Ok, I'm making this attempt at some civil discourse.

This is a pretty good idea, B.

Here is the Word of Faith Doctrinal stance as presented on this forum.

Section I: WE BELIEVE...

Concerning the Godhead, WE BELIEVE
We believe in the one, true God. Our God is manifested in three separate, distinct, eternal Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (Spirit)...​

I'm a tiny bit dissatisfied with the "separate" part, but that truly is a nitpick. There may be exceptions, but I believe in general WoF is properly Trinitarian. The Trinity is a concept that resists accurate description anyway.

...

​

The angels said to Jesus' disciples, "...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven." His coming is imminent. When He comes, "...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years.(Acts 1:11; 1 Thess 4:16-17; Rev 5:10, 20:6).​

I am undecided as to my eschatological stance, other than that I believe "Pre-Trib" is the least likely option.

...

Concerning the Holy Spirit, WE BELIEVE
The Baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire is a gift from God as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ to all believers in this dispensation and is received separately from the new birth. This experience is accompanied by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Holy Spirit Himself gives utterance (Matt 3:11; John 14:16-17; Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38-39; Acts 19:1-7; Acts 2:1-4).​

I don't consider Scripture consistent enough to warrant dogmatic statements that tongues constitute "initial evidence" or that Spirit-baptism necessarily is separate and subsequent relative to regeneration; in fact, I tend to believe the opposite, that it is most likely the same thing.

Brief reasoning: 1 Cor. 12:13 places Spirit-baptism and drinking of the Spirit as parallels. The Gospels seem to view Spirit-baptism as the activity that makes us "grain," while "fire-baptism" is the fate awaiting those who are "chaff." Acts 10-11 show Spirit-baptism as happening even before Peter finished preaching, and was the impetus for the hearers' water-baptism. Acts 19 shows that "receiving the Spirit" is expected to happen as soon as one comes to faith or "belief."

...

Concerning divine healing, WE BELIEVE
Healing is for the total person; body, soul, and spirit, and is wrought by the power of God. It is provided for in the atonement of Christ, and is the privilege of every member of the Body of Christ today who will receive by faith. (James 5:14-15; Mark 16:18; Isa 53:4-5; Matt 8:17; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Cor 12:9; 1 Cor 11:24-30; Acts 19:11-12).​

Several concerns here. One is the "today" aspect, since Rom. 8:29 tells us the "redemption of our bodies" is yet future, and 2 Cor. 4:16 makes the negative confession that our "outer man" is "decaying."

Another is that this use of 1 Pet. 2:24 seems out of keeping with the context.

I'm also troubled by the "divine" modifier. I do lean toward the WoF position in that I believe it is rarely if ever His will that we just passively accept illness or infirmity. But I think many times it is His will that we use natural or medical means or make lifestyle changes. (1 Tim. 5:23) I think the WoF position that "divine" healing is always available "by faith," combined with the specific WoF belief about "saying and not doubting" can in practice be dangerous.

Concerning water baptism, WE BELIEVE

We are directly commanded by our Lord to be baptized in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Baptism in water is by immersion. It is for believers only and does not save a person. Thus we do not believe that intercession on our behalf achieves either salvation or baptism, nor do we recognize infant baptism or baptism for the dead. This ordinance is a symbol of the Christian's identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Matt. 28:19; Rom 6:4; Rom 10:9-10; Luke 13:3; Col 2:12; Acts 8:36-39).

I tend to agree with the part about "believers'" baptism, though I do think a case can be made for "infant" baptism.

I'm of the understanding that, regardless of the dictionary definition of "baptizo," in actual practice baptism in the New Testament was often by "pouring." So I don't think the "mode" is a huge deal.


More coming in a moment.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Here's the "more":

Specific Word of Faith Beliefs

1. We believe whatsoever a man says, not doubting in his heart, but believing that those things which he says shall come to pass, that he shall have whatsoever he says. We believe we therefore need the word of God to transform us by the renewing of our mind and speak those things in faith, that the Word of God says, in submission to God. (Mark 11:22-26; Matt 8:8; Rom 10:8-10, 17; Rom 12:2; Prov 18:21; James 4:7)​

I believe the sort of faith taught in Mark 11:23 is the "gift" of faith, sovereignly apportioned by the Spirit for specific cases -- 1 Cor. 12:9; 13:2; Zech. 4:6-7.

2. When Jesus died on the cross, He was separated from God, for He cried "My God My God why have your forsaken me? " because he took our sins upon Himself. (Isa 53:6; Ps 22:1; Matt 27:46; Rom 6:23; 2 Cor 5:21)

I think the idea that the Godhead can be "separated" is at the least troubling.

He was sinless, but being our substitute, He descended into hell, fully paying for our sins. (Isa 53:10-11; Ps 16:10; Matt 12:38-40; Matt 27:46; Acts 2:27, 31; Eph 4:8-10; 1 John 4:10 )

I believe that "payment" was completed at Calvary. 1 Pet. 2:24; 1 Pet. 3:18; John 19:30

3. Jesus died Spiritually, when the Spirit of God abandoned Him while Jesus was on the cross, causing Him to cry out "My God My God why have your forsaken me?" Jesus suffered Spiritual death so we could be made free from spiritual death by becoming born-again Christians. (Rev 1:18; Matt 27:46; John 3:2-8; 1 Pet 1:23; Isa 53:9; Acts 2:24; Rom 6:9; Ps 22)

I believe there is no warrant for saying that the Holy Spirit "abandoned" Him at any time.

I believe it is bizarre to say that God (Jesus) could "die spiritually" -- unless this is saying that Jesus ceased being God, which moves the belief from bizarre to heresy.

Jesus was the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the whole world. He was not conceived in sin, nor did He ever sin, but He was made sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. After dying Spiritually on the cross, Jesus was taken into Hell where the Father raised Him up, from death to life, to become the first born-again man ever, the first of a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people known as born-again Christians. (Matt 26:28; 2 Cor 5:21; 1 Pet 2:9; Rev 1:5; John 1:29; Rev 7:14)

Since He never died spiritually and never went to hell -- at least not to be punished or tortured -- there was no need for Him to be born again.

4. Every good thing comes from God and anything that kills steal, or destroys is not from God, nor is it His will. He gives abundant life. It is the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth, and the scriptures that instructs us, not negative situations. (2 Tim 3:16; John 16:13; Ps 145:9; James 1:17; John 10:10; Matt 7:11)

Every good and perfect gift comes from God, but (and frankly, I'd rather this not be the case) so does "discipline." Heb. 12:6, 10.

John 10:10 is misapplied as a proof-text here.

5. Prosperity is for all believers, for the whole man, spirit, soul, and body.The Lord has pleasure in the prosperity of those who serve Him. (Josh 1:8; Ps 35:27; Ps 103:3; Ps 122:7; Prov 10:22; Prov 28:20; John 10:10; Gal 3:13; 3 John 1:2)

John 10:10 is misapplied here also.

6. We are new creatures made righteous with Christ's righteousness, and it is not of ourselves. We are not unworthy new creatures or sinners saved by grace. We were sinners but now we are saved by grace. (Rom 10:10; 1 Cor 1:30; 2 Cor 5:17; 2 Cor 5:21; Phil 3:9)

Even as an apostle, Paul regarded himself as the foremost of sinners. 1 Tim. 1:15

So here are 12 tenants that earmark the Word of Faith.

If you are really looking for intelligent discourse, please quote which one you do not agree with and the scriptural reasons why.

We're all mature adults, so let' leave ministers and personalities out of it and look solely at what the Word of God says.

Then at the bottom of your post, please list how many of the beliefs you ARE in agreement with.

I think you will find we agree consistently on 10 of 12.

Hmm. Looks to me as though I disagree with half a dozen or so.

 

[NorrinRadd]

...

2. Jesus did not die spiritually. He did not, can not and will not ever change.

If Jesus were forsaken by God at calvary in the terms that spiritual death requires...His words of forgiveness were empty because the Father couldn't hear them.

His forgiveness of the thief was invalid, because he was forsaken and not capable of forgiving sin.

He wouldn't have gone to paradise with the thief. He did not suffer in hell, He went to paradise.

And if He were forsaken, He had no "Father's hands" to commend His living Spirit into. God is a God of the living not the dead.

When taken to the point of saying that Jesus had to be born again Himself, this teaching is just abominable to me.

...

Ooo, those are good.

Um, but... gah, I love and hate my mind when it works this way, even as Gollum loves and hates the ring...

The thing about Jesus never changing -- The Trinity and the Incarnation are really problematic theologically. Certainly Jesus was God from "the beginning" (John 1), was God while on earth (John 8), and was God when He gave John the Revelation. Malachi quotes the LORD as saying, "I do not change," and Hebrews describes Jesus Christ as "the same yesterday, today, and forever." But... at a particular point in time, He "became" flesh. Yeah, orthodox theology says He "took on" a second nature -- human -- in addition to His eternal divine nature. But how is that not in SOME sense a "change"? IMO, that's one of the places where human language and understanding are not sufficient to the task.

 

[NorrinRadd]

What?

There are hundreds of promises in the Bible. They are all received by faith.

The Bible promises that we will not be tempted above that we are able. But alot of Christians, including myself, sin. Does that mean I'm not saved?

The Bible promises us peace, but I know alot of Christians who worry. Are they not saved?

This view holds no logic, IMHO.

Peace...

One aspect of it goes like this:

Suppose I'm sick with something minor -- a head cold, for example. I "believe" for my healing. Nothing happens, other than what would happen for any unbeliever -- It persists, maybe even worsens, and after about two weeks finally goes away. Well, if I don't have enough faith to receive a quick healing of something so minor, how can I possibly have enough faith to achieve and maintain something so dramatic as a reborn spirit within me?

 

[irenemcg]

You may all notice I have changed my icon not because I have changed my views but because some of the statement of faith here and I'm not going into it I do not fully agree with. Who am I a Christian who believes in the full power of Pentecost and pursuit of an intimate walk with Jesus.

I pledge my allegiance to Jesus Christ first and foremost.

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

You may all notice I have changed my icon not because I have changed my views but because some of the statement of faith here and I'm not going into it I do not fully agree with. Who am I a Christian who believes in the full power of Pentecost and pursuit of an intimate walk with Jesus.

I pledge my allegiance to Jesus Christ first and foremost.

More Power to Ya
Words and music by Bob Hartman
Based on Isaiah 40:31

You say you've been feeling weaker, weaker by the day
You say you can't make the joy of your salvation stay
But good things come to them that wait
Not to those who hesitate
So hurry up and wait upon the Lord

(Chorus)
More power to ya
When you're standing on His word
When you're trusting with your whole heart in the message you have heard
More power to ya
When we're all in one accord
They that wait upon the Lord, they shall renew, they shall renew their strength

Jesus promised His disciples He'd give strength to them
Jesus told them all to tarry in Jerusalem
When they were all in one accord
The power of His Spirit poured
And they began to turn the world around

So be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might
Put on all His armor and fight the good fight
In all of our weakness, He becomes so strong
When He gives us the power and the strength to carry on

(Chorus)
More power to ya
When you're standing on His word
When you're trusting with your whole heart in the message you have heard
More power to ya
When we're all in one accord
They that wait upon the Lord, they shall renew, they shall renew their strength

 

[irenemcg]

I pledge my allegiance to Jesus Christ, to my glorified risen Lord first and foremost not to statements of men, I desire to be led by the Holy Spirit in all things. I have learned a lot from the WOF movement and I am greatful to God for what I have learned from many of them, I am certainly not now anti- WOF.

 

[lismore]

Can we say some people in Wof church believe....Not all. My take on this is. You can confess all day long with your mouth, but until faith comes to the heart of a person, nothing is going to happen. Confession is more a choice to order our speech in accordance with what the Word of God says about it. You are in agreement with God by saying so. As far as denying circumstances exist, is not true, no matter who you heard say it. Why would there be the need for faith if no circumstances exist? We just choose to believe God, above the circumstances.

I agree with what you are saying and I also agree with several WOF teachings. But that was my experience with people who claimed to be WOF.

Of course claiming to be does not mean that they are.

God Bless You

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

I believe that our confessions in faith create an atmosphere where God is able to work with us. If you followed the teacher's thread on the prophet, you'll understand what I mean when I say work with or synergize.

The words and deeds through which there is synergy with Him are powerful and they will accomplish much. But I can only create an atmosphere.

We can talk about God's will until we're blue in the face, and much of what everybody says is true. So why do there appear to be holes in our "doctrines on healing" or whatever other area we may be lacking in? Why does it seem that some of our prayers in faith go unanswered?

Referring again to the teaching on the prophet...I believe it is because we don't always know what time (kairos) it is. Kairos is the opportune or right time, the season in which we are at any given time (chronos).

If it is the kairos for healing, then words of healing will minister healing to the sick...these are words spoken "in season".

A man has joy by the answer of his mouth, and a word spoken in due season, how good it is! Proverbs 15:23

But because we've all seen this happen and had our faith tested, let's look at it from another perspective. If as Ecclesiastes 3:2 tell us the season to die has come, then our words of healing in faith are spoken to the individual out of season. They may be sweet on the lips, but they will be bitter in the tummy.

If we're just wandering in the "dark" and don't know what kairos it is, we'll have some success...some times we'll stumble into the right place at the right time and everything will come together.

But if we always know what kairos it is, we can always be in the right place at the right time...everything will always come together because we'll be doing, saying and asking for the things that pertain to the season we're in.

Rhema words are powerful. They will do what they were sent to do. When we abide in Christ and His rhema abides in us, we can ask, according to His will what we will and it WILL be done.

So...why would we ask for things that are out of season...they won't happen...is His timing not linked to His will?

One other little issue I had with the use of rhema words. These words are prophetic words, they are the inspired breath of God.

If I am speaking words of my own self...even the scripture...and claim to be saying rhema words, am I any different than the prophet in Deuteronomy 18:20 who will be judged for presuming to speak a word that God did not command him to speak?

That's not to say that we can't quote scripture...to learn from and be encouraged by it. It doesn't rule out psalms hymns and spiritual sayings either. It is simply that rhema words are a way God's power is released through us...we don't command it. He gives it to us in synergy (sunergeo) with our labor of love in service to Him.

So...that's kind of where I'm at with the Rhema thing.

 

[Trish1947]

I believe that our confessions in faith create an atmosphere where God is able to work with us. If you followed the teacher's thread on the prophet, you'll understand what I mean when I say work with or synergize.

The words and deeds through which there is synergy with Him are powerful and they will accomplish much. But I can only create an atmosphere.

We can talk about God's will until we're blue in the face, and much of what everybody says is true. So why do there appear to be holes in our "doctrines on healing" or whatever other area we may be lacking in? Why does it seem that some of our prayers in faith go unanswered?

Referring again to the teaching on the prophet...I believe it is because we don't always know what time (kairos) it is. Kairos is the opportune or right time, the season in which we are at any given time (chronos).

If it is the kairos for healing, then words of healing will minister healing to the sick...these are words spoken "in season".

A man has joy by the answer of his mouth, and a word spoken in due season, how good it is! Proverbs 15:23

But because we've all seen this happen and had our faith tested, let's look at it from another perspective. If as Ecclesiastes 3:2 tell us the season to die has come, then our words of healing in faith are spoken to the individual out of season. They may be sweet on the lips, but they will be bitter in the tummy.

If we're just wandering in the "dark" and don't know what kairos it is, we'll have some success...some times we'll stumble into the right place at the right time and everything will come together.

But if we always know what kairos it is, we can always be in the right place at the right time...everything will always come together because we'll be doing, saying and asking for the things that pertain to the season we're in.

Rhema words are powerful. They will do what they were sent to do. When we abide in Christ and His rhema abides in us, we can ask, according to His will what we will and it WILL be done.

So...why would we ask for things that are out of season...they won't happen...is His timing not linked to His will?

One other little issue I had with the use of rhema words. These words are prophetic words, they are the inspired breath of God.

If I am speaking words of my own self...even the scripture...and claim to be saying rhema words, am I any different than the prophet in Deuteronomy 18:20 who will be judged for presuming to speak a word that God did not command him to speak?

That's not to say that we can't quote scripture...to learn from and be encouraged by it. It doesn't rule out psalms hymns and spiritual sayings either. It is simply that rhema words are a way God's power is released through us...we don't command it. He gives it to us in synergy (sunergeo) with our labor of love in service to Him.

So...that's kind of where I'm at with the Rhema thing.

Enjoyed your post. I can only speak from my experiance. I quit trying to figure this out how this works long ago. I've spoken things where I knew that I knew would take place and it did. Then I've had times when I spoke things that I wasn't so sure about it, and really thought that the words fell to to floor, and still have it happen. I am curious how this all works, but really I don't think I ever will figure this out. LOL..All I can say is we are new creatures in Christ. Born again of His Spirit, and I don't understand all the ends and outs of what all we possess as far as the machanics of how it all works.

 

[NorrinRadd]

SBJ -- Is your "rhema" view similar to my perspective that "declaring" and "commanding" miracles involves the "gift" of faith?

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

SBJ -- Is your "rhema" view similar to my perspective that "declaring" and "commanding" miracles involves the "gift" of faith?

From the terms you're using, its probable...got a summary posted somewhere?

 

[NorrinRadd]

From the terms you're using, its probable...got a summary posted somewhere?

Just the wee shortie in my second post in this thread. I believe that the "mountan-moving" kind of "faith" in view in Mark 11:23 and similar verses in Matt and Luke about removing trees via the spoken command is the "gift" of faith in 1 Cor. 12 and 13, sovereignly distributed by the Spirit for specific occasions. I tend to see Zech. 4:6-7 as providing some background, though not themselves adequate as "proof-texts."

I realize this may not mesh well with other "miraculous faith" passages, such as the reference to Elijah in James, but on the whole it seems to me the best way to harmonize things.