For those interested in primary sources...

[Chany]

Right.

But this is sad because it is a Catholic forum. But people feel free to hide behind their icons to do what would get most protestants kicked out.

It just backing up dissent. I thought that was against the rules.

And then Protestants who want to drop and say something about a secular/political issue are jumped all over and get the full brunt of reporting.

It doesn't make any sense.

I honestly get more support from a Rage Against the Machine song than this forum sometimes.

 

[Michie]

And then Protestants who want to drop and say something about a secular/political issue are jumped all over and get the full brunt of reporting.

It doesn't make any sense.

I honestly get more support from a Rage Against the Machine song than this forum at some points.

I know.

I don't get it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Dissent need not be a bad thing, it is, after all, the basis of our political system. The republicans when out of power dissent from the democratic party government's decisions and vice versa. And in the church dissent serves a similar function. Even sacred scripture recognises the value of dissent when it says, Iron is sharpened by iron, one person is sharpened by contact with another. (Proverbs 27:17 NJB)

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Dissent need not be a bad thing, it is, after all, the basis of our political system. The republicans when out of power dissent from the democratic party government's decisions and vice versa. And in the church dissent serves a similar function. Even sacred scripture recognises the value of dissent when it says, Iron is sharpened by iron, one person is sharpened by contact with another. (Proverbs 27:17 NJB)

Dissent is allowable, to a degree. Going against Dogma, going against the Catechism, and to really think they will bring about that kind of change to a Church that has survived for two millennia....

 

[MoreCoffee]

Dissent is allowable, to a degree. Going against Dogma, going against the Catechism, and to really think they will bring about that kind of change to a Church that has survived for two millennia....

Well, it is so easy to say that going against dogma or against the Catechism of the Catholic Church [is wrong], but the truth is that not one Catholic anywhere on Earth, Benedict XVI included, is always and in every situation in agreement with dogma and the CCC. These are the rule that must always be tested by exceptions. Dissent is a way to see when the rule will fail its purpose.

The Lord spoke concerning the Sabbath Law and the traditions that were built up around it that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. The Pharisees were unwilling to admit that he was right when he said that. In a similar way, the CCC, dogmas, and the moral teaching of the church form a hierarchy of truths, sometimes one truth is in conflict with another higher truth. For example, to withhold the truth in order to protect the innocent from the wicked is morally just and good while to speak the truth knowing it will result in harm to the innocent is bad.

I see the nuns' work for the poor, elderly, suffering, and oppressed as good and the proclamation of same sex marriage as against church teaching as insignificant in the work of caring for and helping the people who are in the groups mentioned above. The USCCB does a more than adequate job of publicising the Bishops' view on same sex marriage and on homosexual acts and so forth and they do it without needing the nuns meeting in the LCWR to mark it as an agenda item, publish leadership material about it, speak in public about it. Let the bishops teach and the nuns can do good.

I suspect that the outcome of the discussions between LCWR and Vatican will not be some great shake-up of women's religious communities, despite what some OBOB people have written.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Well, it is so easy to say that going against dogma or against the Catechism of the Catholic Church [is wrong], but the truth is that not one Catholic anywhere on Earth, Benedict XVI included, is always and in every situation in agreement with dogma and the CCC. These are the rule that must always be tested by exceptions. Dissent is a way to see when the rule will fail its purpose.

That last line, it more readily beckons "dissent long enough, gain enough dissenters, change the rule."

Good luck with that.

Yes, you do have Catholics who don't agree with everything that is laid out in front by the Church; you also don't have Catholics who live their faith accordingly, too. When people take vows to remain true to the Church but they see no harm in using or advocating the use of contraceptives, see nothing wrong with abortions, pass a blind eye at homosexual relations, question if in fact the Eucharist is the body of Christ, try to mix in whatever New Age curiosities that have peeked their interest...to me, that's hypocrisy.

The Lord spoke concerning the Sabbath Law and the traditions that were built up around it that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. The Pharisees were unwilling to admit that he was right when he said that.

You know what else the Pharisees did, right?

In a similar way, the CCC, dogmas, and the moral teaching of the church form a hierarchy of truths, sometimes one truth is in conflict with another higher truth. For example, to withhold the truth in order to protect the innocent from the wicked is morally just and good while to speak the truth knowing it will result in harm to the innocent is bad.

Do these people have a right to know?

I see the nuns' work for the poor, elderly, suffering, and oppressed as good and the proclamation of same sex marriage as against church teaching as insignificant in the work of caring for and helping the people who are in the groups mentioned above.

Oh, it's more than just their proclamation of same-sex marriage.

The USCCB does a more than adequate job of publicising the Bishops' view on same sex marriage and on homosexual acts and so forth and they do it without needing the nuns meeting in the LCWR to mark it as an agenda item, publish leadership material about it, speak in public about it. Let the bishops teach and the nuns can do good.

Have one party that says one thing, and another that does something completely counter.

Of course!

I suspect that the outcome of the discussions between LCWR and Vatican will not be some great shake-up of women's religious communities, despite what some OBOB people have written.

And I suspect there will be a few excommunications. Personally, what for, I say. Just wait it out a few more years.

 

[Fantine]

When people take vows to remain true to the Church but they see no harm in using or advocating the use of contraceptives, see nothing wrong with abortions, pass a blind eye at homosexual relations, question if in fact the Eucharist is the body of Christ, try to mix in whatever New Age curiosities that have peeked their interest...to me, that's hypocrisy.

And exactly which nuns are you talking about? The real nuns or the grossly exaggerated stereotypes promoted by an inflammatory Catholic news media run amuck and fueled by the people who repeat these calumnies on this board?

This is the biggest example of unsubstantiated claptrap I've read here about the nuns yet. "Using contraceptives!" Where'd you get that one?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, you do have Catholics who don't agree with everything that is laid out in front by the Church; you also don't have Catholics who live their faith accordingly, too. When people take vows to remain true to the Church but they see no harm in using or advocating the use of contraceptives, see nothing wrong with abortions, pass a blind eye at homosexual relations, question if in fact the Eucharist is the body of Christ, try to mix in whatever New Age curiosities that have peeked their interest...to me, that's hypocrisy.

Well, did the LCWR say there was no harm in using contraceptives, or that there is nothing wrong with abortion, or that one ought to pass a blind eye over homosexual relations, or question the real presence in the Holy Eucharist? And if so, who did?

There's a lot of accusations flying around in OBOB comments but where's the documentation to back them up and who is responsible for the alleged bad theology, the person who says or writes it or the LCWR because that person may be associated with LCWR?

I feel safer in the hands of a proper judicial process than in the 'tender mercies' of OBOB judgements

 

[Vasallus]

Blah blah blah. "Female priests"......"Question the Eucharist."
Case closed. Shut up and obey the Vatican.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Blah blah blah. "Female priests"......"Question the Eucharist."
Case closed. Shut up and obey the Vatican.

<Chortle chortle chortle>

You've got to be kidding

 

[Athanasias]

Dissent from the Magisterium.... is not compatible with being a "good Catholic".
- Pope John Paul II -

 

[WarriorAngel]

Dissent need not be a bad thing, it is, after all, the basis of our political system. The republicans when out of power dissent from the democratic party government's decisions and vice versa. And in the church dissent serves a similar function. Even sacred scripture recognises the value of dissent when it says, Iron is sharpened by iron, one person is sharpened by contact with another. (Proverbs 27:17 NJB)

The Church is not run like politics and we do not pick and chose and dissent when we wish.

Sure some struggle with some concepts - or some were ignorant of some things at one time, but genuine and honest faith means we seek to know and conform to His laws - not ours.

How do we pray the Our Father earnestly if we are refusing to do His will.

 

[Fantine]

Dissent from the Magisterium.... is not compatible with being a "good Catholic".
- Pope John Paul II -

Inventing wildly exaggerated stories insinuating that women are dissenting from the Magesterium...is not compatible with...being a "good Catholic."

Lying, period. Repeating lies from unreliable press sources....is not compatible with....being a "good Catholic."

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Church is not run like politics and we do not pick and chose and dissent when we wish.

Sure some struggle with some concepts - or some were ignorant of some things at one time, but genuine and honest faith means we seek to know and conform to His laws - not ours.

How do we pray the Our Father earnestly if we are refusing to do His will.

Not run like politics you say in the above quote; then why is this debate mainly about politics? Why are the current hot button issues in the USA elections the main thing being debated? And why is a worldly approach to leadership being advanced as the ideal, specifically, why is what some Curia statement says taken as an absolute demand, a dictate, that the nuns must immediately kowtow to with no questions asked no discussions entered into and why say - as one OBOBer did - that a person cannot be a good catholic and dissent at the same time?

No I do not believe that in OBOB the church is seen as apolitical. Not for one second do I believe that.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Not run like politics you say in the above quote; then why is this debate mainly about politics? Why are the current hot button issues in the USA elections the main thing being debated? And why is a worldly approach to leadership being advanced as the ideal, specifically, why is what some Curia statement taken as an absolute demand, a dictate, that the nuns must immediately kowtow to with no questions asked no discussions entered into and why say - as one OBOBer did - that a person cannot be a good catholic and dissent at the same time?

No I do not believe that in OBOB the church is seen as apolitical. Not for one second do I believe that.

This issue has nothing to do with politics.
Nothing.

Wow - must it be explained how the Church has always run?

There is one set of teachings - just one - and in times of peril or confusion the Pope defines the terms - based on scripture and Tradition and gives us the clear and concise understanding. HE doesnt change or add - he explains.

This is why Popes have to [and forced] to make pronouncements.
Popes lead the Church in every era. Always bringing us back to our senses... reminding us of the doctrines and even making them dogma so they arent disputed and a male only priesthood was always doctrine - and is now dogma.

AND no - you cannot argue against these things. They cannot be changed.

The Pope confirms the faith as Jesus told Peter to confirm his brethren. He is the teacher of God's laws.
HE stands in the shoes of Peter who stands in the shoes of Christ.

SO yah, if someone isnt going to stand in the line with the ancient teachings - they can say goodbye because that is what Protestantism is - and we are not our own Pope.

Here is the thing - 2000 years have past and in those 2000 years - ppl have tried and tried to change the Church - it hasnt changed and it wont change.

Jesus gave His promise it wont change - to want change is to want to fight Christ.
Its nothing new - but the answer is - and remains - NO - it wont change.

 

[Fantine]

Certainly Bishop Morlino, who virtually endorsed Paul Ryan, cannot be seen as apolitical.

And regarding leadership, Jesus' model was that of the servant leader, washing his apostles' feet.

Not the guy clanking his keys and throwing his weight around that one of you referred to on this board.

The servant leader.

It sounds as if many of the leaders in the LCWR are servant leaders to their congregations--respecting them, loving them, helping them to be everything they can be.

Leading like Jesus.

And although I haven't read many encyclicals, I would be willing to bet that a lot more of them praise servant leadership than the big guy clanking his keys, throwing his weight around, and saying, "I'm the boss here."

 

[WarriorAngel]

Inventing wildly exaggerated stories insinuating that women are dissenting from the Magesterium...is not compatible with...being a "good Catholic."

Lying, period. Repeating lies from unreliable press sources....is not compatible with....being a "good Catholic."

If these were male monks - your story would be different, huh?

Its just that we are discussing women - because get this - it is women in this institution who doing this. IT is the same for anyone - gender doesnt matter.

Unless you really need a long long long list of men who were excommunicated, stop pitting women against men.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sometimes it is wise not to read what is written here.

 

[MikeK]

That's when you say "heck no, I won't do what you tell me."

I think that's how it goes.

And then Protestants who want to drop and say something about a secular/political issue are jumped all over and get the full brunt of reporting.

It doesn't make any sense.

I honestly get more support from a Rage Against the Machine song than this forum sometimes.

 

[Fantine]

If these were male monks - your story would be different, huh?

Its just that we are discussing women - because get this - it is women in this institution who doing this. IT is the same for anyone - gender doesnt matter.

Unless you really need a long long long list of men who were excommunicated, stop pitting women against men.

I would be as concerned if the press and everyday Catholics were spreading wildly inaccurate fallacies about male monks, diocesan priests, deacons, altar servers, whoever.

The comments in this thread have gotten completely out of hand.