For Theistic Evolutionists

[wonderingman16]

for those of u who believe that christianity and evolution don't contradict how do u explain Hebrews 11:3? It says "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." this, to me says evolution is wrong because it says what we have today was created by things we could have seen. just looking for feedback thanks

 

[DrLao]

Evolution deals with the changes and diversification of living things. Not the creation of the universe.

If you want to apply that verse to everything within the universe then it is demostratably false. Plants and animals can build and construct all sorts of things, which can be seen, from visible materials.

 

[wonderingman16]

but evolution also creates new stuff correct? before the first ape evolved to man there was no man. this a new creation from something else. i am confused about the animal comment. animals always make things out of preexisting materials. building a nest out of material is still the material just put together. apes to men is not on the same thinking pattern

 

[Zadok001]

I don't see how that quote affects theistic evolution in the SLIGHTEST. The universe was formed at God's command? Sure, fine. No conflict with evolution there. "...what is seen was not made out of what was visible"? Sure, also fine. God creates the universe, puts it into motion, evolution takes over.

Every living thing is formed out of material that is not "alive" independant of the organism. All this quote requires is that God created THAT material, NOT that God created each species individually 6000 years ago.

 

[DrLao]

but evolution also creates new stuff correct? before the first ape evolved to man there was no man. this a new creation from something else. i am confused about the animal comment. animals always make things out of preexisting materials. building a nest out of material is still the material just put together. apes to men is not on the same thinking pattern

But apes and men use exactly the same materials. If I design a new airplane, it is certainly true that it is totally new. But I still use aluminum that was mined from the ground. Man is still carbohydrates, lipids, nucleic acids, protein, assorted minerals, and water, just like all living things.

 

[wonderingman16]

everyone seems to be missing the point so i will say it again. God created everything. evolution says that a entirely new substance was created. a man is not an ape. if evolution is true it is saying that a man was a new being.this passsage clearly states that God created everything from his own voice. people are trying to say this doesn't count since it is the same materials. if God created an ape and it became a man this would not be what he had spoken into exsistence. it would have been created by what was seen(the ape).

 

[DrLao]

No, you are mistaken. Evolution does not say man is a totally new substance. Man is an ape according to evolution. As far as everything that can be seen says, that is true. If God did something else to man to make him special, then that wasn't evolution's doing.

 

[Arikay]

What if god spoke the mutations into existance that changed ape into man?
Would that not that make man a creation of god, through evolution?

everyone seems to be missing the point so i will say it again. God created everything. evolution says that a entirely new substance was created. a man is not an ape. if evolution is true it is saying that a man was a new being.this passsage clearly states that God created everything from his own voice. people are trying to say this doesn't count since it is the same materials. if God created an ape and it became a man this would not be what he had spoken into exsistence. it would have been created by what was seen(the ape).

 

[troodon]

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command

It was created at God's command; this in no way contradicts the standpoint of theistic evolutionists.

so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

What is the stuff that we see? We see matter. We don't see humans or birds or therapsid fossils we see the matter that makes up the humans, birds, and therapsid fossils. The matter we see was created by God and was thus not made "out of what was visible". This verse fits in perfectly with theistic evolution.

this, to me says evolution is wrong because it says what we have today was created by things we could have seen

If this is your interpretation of the passage than you must deplore mainstream YEC as well. After all, they call for lots of speciation after the flood.

 

[Zadok001]

"everyone seems to be missing the point so i will say it again. God created everything. evolution says that a entirely new substance was created. a man is not an ape. if evolution is true it is saying that a man was a new being.this passsage clearly states that God created everything from his own voice. people are trying to say this doesn't count since it is the same materials. if God created an ape and it became a man this would not be what he had spoken into exsistence. it would have been created by what was seen(the ape)."

A child (Man) is not his parents (an Ape). Hence, if your argument is correct (that any entity which has not previously existed cannot come into existance without the direct intervention of a deity), it would seem to make procreation a logical impossibility.

 

[LorentzHA]

Evolution deals with the changes and diversification of living things. Not the creation of the universe.

If you want to apply that verse to everything within the universe then it is demostratably false. Plants and animals can build and construct all sorts of things, which can be seen, from visible materials.

Good point. Not only that we are watching protplanetary disks forming around stars in the Orian Nebula as we speak! Planets being formed! So is creation Still happening? The way the young man descibes it it was a one time event with no evolution..how are planets forming now? LOL

 

[wonderingman16]

Good point. Not only that we are watching protplanetary disks forming around stars in the Orian Nebula as we speak! Planets being formed! So is creation Still happening? The way the young man descibes it it was a one time event with no evolution..how are planets forming now? LOL

do u have any sources for your claims? also for everyone else the passage is very clear in my eyes. it says everything was created by God and was that way. evolution says that things must be added. a dinosaur to bird requires a new species. if the time scale is correct new things are being created out of what we see. this contradicts scripture.

 

[revolutio]

do u have any sources for your claims? also for everyone else the passage is very clear in my eyes. it says everything was created by God and was that way. evolution says that things must be added. a dinosaur to bird requires a new species. if the time scale is correct new things are being created out of what we see. this contradicts scripture.

I guess you haven't had much science yet because stars are constantly being formed and dieing.

Species is a human idea not an actual object so a new one being created is hardly against the Bible.

Nothing new is created ever. "Matter cannot be created or destroyed." Everything that is 'created' is really just a new arrangement of the fundamental particles.

 

[the_malevolent_milk_man]

You're getting lost in your definitions and classifications.

Are two species different? Yes and no. Small genetic differences can cause large differences in appearance. We call them different because that's how we classify animals. However, in reality the the parent and child species can still be 99%+ the same. In fact the genomes of some animals have a greater variation within their own species than they do to different related species. Evolution creates nothing new, it merely alters existing materials.

source
http://www.geocities.com/jim_bowery/racediff.html

 

[troodon]

do u have any sources for your claims? also for everyone else the passage is very clear in my eyes. it says everything was created by God and was that way. evolution says that things must be added. a dinosaur to bird requires a new species. if the time scale is correct new things are being created out of what we see. this contradicts scripture.

I'm sorry but if this is your interpretation then it is wrong.

Observed instances of speciation
Some more observed instances of speciation

I doubt you'll respond but just know that you are interpreting the passage incorrectly.

 

[platzapS]

I'm surprised that no one has said this yet--but humans did not come from apes; We share a common ancestor with them. Apes are not our grandfathers, but rather our cousins.

 

[Godzman]

Am I a theistic evolutionist if I believe in old earth creationism

 

[LorentzHA]

do you have any sources for your claims?

The specific protoplanetary disk, "proplyd" formations I was referring to in Orion, comes specifically from ("Style & Substance,"Astronomy Magazine, October 2003 Article by Ray Jayawardhana-Astophysicist, The University of Michigan) I take the magazine at my home monthly. If you do not have a News Stand, Barnes & Noble Bokksellers or Borders Books in the city you live in, you may be able to access it through the magazines web site, not sure. Astronomy.com

Unfortunately they are not "claims" they are fact, I do thank you for the compliment however, I wish they were MY claims because that would mean that I was an Astrophysicist and spent my days and nights peering at stars and watching young planets being formed around them and calculating stellar mechanics and the like. Unfortunately my life is not quite as glamorous. I spend my days dissecting the deceased and studying the inner workings of the human body, when I am not doing that I am sitting in lectures or I pop in here for a chat. Actually, I wanted to be an Astophysicist but my calculation speed is not quite fast enough. I took several Atronomy and Astrophysics class in undergrad. Now it is just my hobby, when I have free time.

Frankly, I am surprised you have not run across something about this even in a very toned down version that is easily comprehensible to non-scientists. It has been on MSN's home page several times, The Nightly news at least 4 times that I have seen and I do not watch the News every night! There has been MANY, MANY, MANY mentionings of the 170+ planets recenlty discovered belonging to other solar systems in our own Galaxy. I live in a major city and out paper has a large daily science section it has been in there 3 times in the last year. If yo udo not live in a major city or do not have access to scientific education or materials, it is obvious you have a computer, type in protoplanetary disks or "proplyds" into your search box for more basic info.

also for everyone else the passage is very clear in my eyes. it says everything was created by God and was that way

"..for everyone else the passage is very clear in my eyes"

Who is the "everyone else", that the scripture is clear to you in your eyes that you are referring to?? Is this your way of saying, other people think so to...whom? People at Wednesday night Bible Study, or your preacher?

evolution says that things must be added. a dinosaur to bird requires a new species. if the time scale is correct new things are being created out of what we see.

No, this is one of the big misconceptions about evolution, it does not reqiure a "half breed" or "half species" the changes happen at particlate levels not the macrosopic. The changes happen genetically/chemically, not through observing an animal with half a wing sticking out the side of its body.

this contradicts scripture

These 2 quotes are from our friend Lucaspa's sig line, I think they are quite appropriate regarding your comment.

"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437

"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton

I do have to mention I find it amusing that you require proof, which I do not mind providing as I gave you the info to check it out above, but the part I find amusing is that you have no "tangible" or observable proof of your own to offer. You are going on "faith" and we are all supposed to accept you siting the text of your own belief system as why you doubt things that have been actually observed and studied. You would not believe me if I said it was a story an Astrophysicist from The University of Michigan had written down and that God had revealed it to him, one night, would you?

 

[the_malevolent_milk_man]

Am I a theistic evolutionist if I believe in old earth creationism

If you don't think evolution is true then you're not a theistic evolutionist. If you believe in OEC and not evolution you're off on some tangent that few people see. I've heard some people say that the earth is old and that God created the animals over time. However that's a very minority view.

 

[DrLao]

I'm surprised that no one has said this yet--but humans did not come from apes; We share a common ancestor with them. Apes are not our grandfathers, but rather our cousins.

This is a bit of a false dichotomy, since they are both true. Apes are our cousins. But the common ancestor we share with other ape species could also properly be called an ape. It wasn't exactly the same as the apes alive today, but it was an ape nonetheless. So, apes are our grandfathers too.