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No you didn't.
I mean that, even if what has been done already "should" be enough, it's clearly not for billions of people, who require more evidence in order to believe. It's zero effort for God to provide this evidence, so why doesn't he do it? Unless he's not really bothered about us believing in him.
Okay, well you can have my response. There's a scale of credibility here. You'd believe something more readily when there is lots of independent verification, and none of the participants have any reason to lie. There's no motivation for every oceanographer in the world to lie about the Mariana trench. There's plenty of motivation to lie about being the chosen people of God.
Except I wasn't supposing that.
Didn't say that that was your claim either, but you seem to be bringing little else to the table here.
It doesn't contradict reality - more people would believe given clearer signs. That's a given.
See what? A miracle?
And I'm not talking about those who would disbelieve with signs - I'm talking about those who would be more inclined to believe given a sign.
I'm not talking about people seeing signs with the intention to disprove, I'm talking about people seeing signs with the opposite intent.
I think we're done here. All I'm seeing are excuses being made up for a deity that's either non-existent or absenteeist, and it's getting a little irritating repeatedly correcting your misreadings of my posts.
The funny thing is that it is just such testimony like yours that lead me to abandon religion altogether!
I have witnessed children die of hunger. I have witnessed lynchings and acts of God that destroyed people who actually were very pious Christians. Yet you insist this invisible God loves them?
I believe that Jesus was a real person but just like the early Christians before the synod of Nice; I do not believe he is God. Also I do not believe in any God for that matter.
Hypocrites and Pharisees!
My problem is that God is overlooking the 1.7 billion people in this world living in absolute poverty in order to tend to the needs of fat, old, rich Americans. I'm not selfish or narcissistic enough to think that's a good thing.
Yes, mam --No, God has given that into our hands BUT I think what AV was trying to convey is that this woman seemed to think Christianity was responsible to take care of her and her neighbor on the corner. Yes, we are to help them out but our main objective in helping them is to not keep buying them groceries but rather to give them the message of hope that they don't need people to bring them a handout all the time. They can go to Jesus themselves and learn how to be the blessers rather than the blessees all the time.
I used to pray for help and advice on everything, and I felt a little guilty about only praying when I wanted something, so I also said lots of prayers just thanking God for what I had. In 17 years of this, absolutely nothing. And when I finally rejected religion altogether, nothing changed.
Really. I mean if this kind of argument and appeal to personal testimony is the last grand plan before the apocalypse, God really isn't serious about saving people.
well, yes actually, you have been supposing all along that god should perform more miracles. furthermore, they should be more convincing than the ones modern christians claim are happening now. you have suggested if god cares about us knowing him, performing more miracles would be more effective. you have also said that non miraculous acts of christians do little to prove jesus' divinity in the context of asking for more miracles as proof, but later said that you're not asking god to give miracles on demand as a show of divinity.
your argument breaks down without the supposition that god's existence and message to mankind must be supported by miracles alone.
really? you're not going to take into account all i've said about jesus' redemptive act on the cross as the real sign his miracles were actually only alluding to? again, are you sure you are not missing my point?
addressed in 1st paragraph.
a message, i said.
the message being that there is no opposite intent in god's eyes. that asking for a sign is already a display of disbelief. in his story about lazarus and the rich man, the rich man begs to get a message from hell to his brothers and was told they have moses and the prophets. the rich man said his brothers wouldn't listen to moses and the prophets and was told then they won't listen to someone having risen from the dead(paraphrased). what is the first thing any of us do when something strange occurs? seek a natural explanation.
i've said twice in this thread already that we will never produce satisfactory evidence for either side of the issue. it can always be argued. could this perhaps be the reason god doesn't produce miracles on demand?
all you are seeing is not all i've presented. i have demonstrated where i think you have misunderstood me, but you have not demonstrated where you claim i am misreading you.
it just seems to me that you NEED for christianity to have a doctrine of faith healing which cannot be easily proven and thus give you something to shoot holes in.
christians are attacked for their belief in miracles, but when i emphasize the gospel, de-emphasize miracles, defend modern medicine, i am attacked for not emphasizing miracles more. are you simply giving up because you are so used to having it both ways?
i have withheld all personal testimony, and written quite a bit. let's not be dishonest by skipping over that and say that this alone is the last stand.
In God We Trust was adopted in 1956. It had nothing to do with the founding of America.Inan3 said:God isn't overlooking anyone!! The only reason that America is a blessed country is because of the principles of God it was founded on (remember "in God we trust") and those Christians who continue to pray for it)
There's no reason to believe this is true (though your principles of God appear undeveloped and unsubstantiated upon). You need to explain the success story of the extremely secular and non-religious nations of Europe such as Norway, Sweden, Finland, Czech. Republic and to a lesser extent much of Western and Northern Europe in general. You have to explain why the citizens there live in the consistently highly regarded best nations on the planet to live in.BUT if America keeps casting those principles aside it will fall the same as others. Don't get me wrong, it won't be God bringing this upon us, it will be because we leave HIS provision for the provision of the god of this world.
I can't speak for Ar Cosc, but one of the things that really got me was why God should be so worried about my personal life or what is going on with me. The whole image of God wanting to have a relationship with me. Why me? Why did God specifically bless me, especially to this degree? Especially when there are millions of children dying of malnutrition and preventable disease?
I left the faith not because my prayers weren't getting answered, but rather because the prayers of the starving world weren't.
Don't you think it's silly, AV, that you think God's priorities lie in helping you and your folk with your mundane problems when you already live in mansions and are among the rich minority in this world? You have no perspective.
Right --In God We Trust was adopted in 1956. It had nothing to do with the founding of America.
Huh?
Sorry, you've lost me.
As to these other countries who believe in their false gods and don't give any place to the ONE TRUE GOD why should anyone expect or think that GOD should provide for them? God provides for His own. They are receiving what THEIR false gods offer them ... a big fat nothing! The blame is not God's. The blame is not America's. The blame belongs to those nations and those people who REJECT the real God and serve other gods!!
Yeah, because this is more important for their survival than food. Is this what you'd say to a starving child in Africa? "Have hope"?
Yeah I get that. I don't see what it has to do with the US adopting the "In God We Trust" motto in the 1950's.
Yeah, because this is more important for their survival than food. Is this what you'd say to a starving child in Africa? "Have hope"?
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