For me, it's either theistic evolution or nothing.

Ryukil said:

There are mountains of evidence for evolution. It is corroborated by research in every field. Scientists are basically unanimous these days. The only ones who won't give in, after 150 years, are the fundamentalists.

So for me, and many others I'm sure, it's either theistic evolution or we simply can not believe in Christianity.
This is why Christians should stop telling people they can't believe in evolution. Is a person's belief in evolution going to send them to Hell, as long as they believe that Jesus has saved them and they have accepted him? No! As long as the central belief is there, it doesn't matter what a person thinks about the origin of the earth. It's like whether a person believes in post-Trib or pre-Trib. Who the hell cares?

If Christians keep pushing the view that people can't believe in both Christianity and evolution, many potential Christians will be lost. They will be pushed away from the church as it becomes increasingly anachronistic. The will say, "I believe in evolution; of course I can't be a Christian." But that's only because Christians themselves have promoted this view. They have a damn grudge match with evolution. Christianity and evolution need not be mutually exclusive.

I believe in evolution, and in my view, if God was involved, it is an absolutely beautiful phenomenon. It is the work of a master artist, a supremely brilliant engineer. A single-celled organism gave way to all of the life we see on earth around us. It's amazing! Praise be to God for this glorious master work that shows us his incredible ingenuity.

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So what do you do with the other hundreds of miracles in the Bible? If we say that the earth couldn’t have been created 6,000 years ago in 6 days because science says otherwise how can we believe in Christ’s incarnation and resurrection? I think it’s important that we realize that God’s miracles were absolutely intended to be unexplainable, that’s what made them so moving and inspirational to unbelievers. Those miracles were intended to show God’s might, His glory, and to bring unbelievers to repentance. If we can explain all of them by natural occurrences then how does that show His might and glory, and how does that bring unbelievers to repentance? Scientific explanations for God’s miracles actually have the opposite effect that they were intended to elicit. They abolish God’s might and glory and sway unbelievers away from repentance.

loveofourlord said:

Do we even understand yet the genetic basis for instincts? It's something I've always been curious about.

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We've got some information about the genetic causes of differences in instincts and bits of mechanism, but that's a far cry from really understanding how DNA (which carries instructions like 'Make protein A when these biochemical conditions are present in the cell') translates into 'Try to herd sheep'. The kind of information we do have includes, identifying how certain hormones affect behavior and how single genetic differences can affect instincts (e.g. this paper).

BNR32FAN said:

So what do you do with the other hundreds of miracles in the Bible? If we say that the earth couldn’t have been created 6,000 years ago in 6 days because science says otherwise how can we believe in Christ’s incarnation and resurrection? I think it’s important that we realize that God’s miracles were absolutely intended to be unexplainable, that’s what made them so moving and inspirational to unbelievers. Those miracles were intended to show God’s might, His glory, and to bring unbelievers to repentance. If we can explain all of them by natural occurrences then how does that show His might and glory, and how does that bring unbelievers to repentance? Scientific explanations for God’s miracles actually have the opposite effect that they were intended to elicit. They abolish God’s might and glory and sway unbelievers away from repentance.

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we don't say that the earth couldn't have been created in 6000 years, there just is not only no evidence, but massive amounts of counter evidence, so that either makes god a liar, or creationism is wrong.

loveofourlord said:

we don't say that the earth couldn't have been created in 6000 years, there just is not only no evidence, but massive amounts of counter evidence, so that either makes god a liar, or creationism is wrong.

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How does it make God a liar when he told everyone exactly how long He took to create the universe?

BNR32FAN said:

How does it make God a liar when he told everyone exactly how long He took to create the universe?

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This is exactly what I was talking about when I replied to you on another thread. They will say this makes God a liar or your God faked it all up but don't consider the possibility that God didn't make the earth just so their dating techniques would add up

Ryukil said:

There are mountains of evidence for evolution. It is corroborated by research in every field. Scientists are basically unanimous these days. The only ones who won't give in, after 150 years, are the fundamentalists.

So for me, and many others I'm sure, it's either theistic evolution or we simply can not believe in Christianity.
This is why Christians should stop telling people they can't believe in evolution. Is a person's belief in evolution going to send them to Hell, as long as they believe that Jesus has saved them and they have accepted him? No! As long as the central belief is there, it doesn't matter what a person thinks about the origin of the earth. It's like whether a person believes in post-Trib or pre-Trib. Who the hell cares?

If Christians keep pushing the view that people can't believe in both Christianity and evolution, many potential Christians will be lost. They will be pushed away from the church as it becomes increasingly anachronistic. The will say, "I believe in evolution; of course I can't be a Christian." But that's only because Christians themselves have promoted this view. They have a damn grudge match with evolution. Christianity and evolution need not be mutually exclusive.

I believe in evolution, and in my view, if God was involved, it is an absolutely beautiful phenomenon. It is the work of a master artist, a supremely brilliant engineer. A single-celled organism gave way to all of the life we see on earth around us. It's amazing! Praise be to God for this glorious master work that shows us his incredible ingenuity.

Click to expand...

A major problem with theistic evolution is explaining what happened to the alleged race of "souless" humans that Adam's alleged parents belonged to.
Presumably, they don't exist today, so where did they go?

BNR32FAN said:

How does it make God a liar when he told everyone exactly how long He took to create the universe?

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Because it's obvious the universe is billions of years old, so making it look old then saying 6000 years would imply that he is trying to deceive. the point is more likely the 6000 years is what is wrong.

@

loveofourlord said:

Because it's obvious the universe is billions of years old, so making it look old then saying 6000 years would imply that he is trying to deceive. the point is more likely the 6000 years is what is wrong.

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So if He made a loaf of bread instantaneously and told you He made it instantaneously but then scientists came and said that’s impossible because this bread appears to have been cooked in an over for 45 minutes then that makes God a liar? Or does it just make the scientists wrong?

Vitality said:

Evolution is as proven as gravity. To deny evolution is on par with completely distancing yourself with all science and logical observation.

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What do you mean by "evolution" exactly?

I accept the scientific evidence that suggests (non-human) life on earth began a very, very long time ago as simple organisms, and that as time went by, more complex creatures appeared and life diversified. That history could be described as "evolution".

However, I don't accept the Darwinian version of "evolution" ... because
(a) of the discontinuities in the fossil record,
(b) I don't think scientists know - or will ever know - how the macro-evolutions evident in fossil record occurred,
(c) I don't accept that Adam evolved from a pre-existing creature ... rather, I believe Adam was created in an instant from inanimate matter ("dust"), as per Genesis 2:7, and as befitting a creature made in the image of God.
(d) theistic evolution doesn't offer a plausible explanation for what happened to the race of "souless humans" that it claims Adam descended from.

Buzzard3 said:

A major problem with theistic evolution is explaining what happened to the alleged race of "souless" humans that Adam's alleged parents belonged to.
Presumably, they don't exist today, so where did they go?

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This question sounds similar to asking where any soulless being goes when they die. Do dogs or Cats go to heaven? I suppose wherever a fish would go when it dies would be the same place that any ancestor of Adam would have gone when they died. Scientifically, they'd be something like homo erectus or Australopithecines.

BNR32FAN said:

So what do you do with the other hundreds of miracles in the Bible? If we say that the earth couldn’t have been created 6,000 years ago in 6 days because science says otherwise how can we believe in Christ’s incarnation and resurrection?

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Not all holding to the account of the creation of God being the explanation claim it was just 6000 years ago. There are a variety of possible time frames being considered among them.

Buzzard3 said:

A major problem with theistic evolution is explaining what happened to the alleged race of "souless" humans that Adam's alleged parents belonged to.
Presumably, they don't exist today, so where did they go?

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I don't believe that other animals are without souls that we do have. I don't see any real basis for holding to that. And certainly it is known that species from earlier times have died out in any case.

Isaiah 41:10 said:

This question sounds similar to asking where any soulless being goes when they die. Do dogs or Cats go to heaven? I suppose wherever a fish would go when it dies would be the same place that any ancestor of Adam would have gone when they died. Scientifically, they'd be something like homo erectus or Australopithecines.

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Why call other beings soulless? I don't see basis for that. What do we humans really have that any among other creatures do not have at all to any degree?

And all creation groans for the hope of that which will be revealed with the redemption, which is delivery from sin that humans are responsible for and other creatures are innocent of, though our sins involve innocent bystanders.

Prophetic visions include others of God's creatures.

As to longer time frames, if any of the six days of creation spoken of is most likely to be longer than the time that can be expected with one daytime and one nighttime it is the first day, when the earth was at first formless, which I can understand to mean unformed, not made to be like the world God meant this to be, which was accomplished perfectly in the six days of creation. That first day could have involved the beginning of the universe and the processes from that, and much more recently God's work starting on this that was then still the unformed world, which was empty of what there is in it since.

The bible says what it says. Clearly, Moses was privy to information that you are not privy to.

What's the problem with that? No problem at all.

BNR32FAN said:

So if He made a loaf of bread instantaneously and told you He made it instantaneously but then scientists came and said that’s impossible because this bread appears to have been cooked in an over for 45 minutes then that makes God a liar? Or does it just make the scientists wrong?

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Remember Jesus made water into very good wine? How long does it take to make top notch wine in those day? Why all the evidence would say it was impossible that the wine was created instantly.

Remember that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form and void. How long did the earth sit that way? How long were the heavens in existence before God began to form and create life on earth?

That we don't know. God doesn't list the time frame for that. In Genesis he focuses his attention on the earth and what he did there and how things happened for life to be on the earth. And he says how long it took him to do it. Which HE reiterates in Exodus. So God declares twice how long he took to create life on this planet and the things necessary for life to flourish here.

And since God does not lie we believe what he said. There can be no deception from God. Since God told us exactly how long he took then he is not deceiving anyone.

What about the "evidence" some may claim.
The answer is simply we are misunderstanding what is there and misunderstand what God did. But it takes millions of years for this or that. Does it? Is God unable to create a planet and universe fully formed with all the variety and intricacies and properties it contains? I think not. He said he did it. Therefore he did. It is we with our tiny little brains and our tiny little understanding that's the issue here. It's not God. It's us assuming we really have the knowledge and understanding of the power and complexity of God. This universe exists under the will of God. And he could completely extinguish it by his word if he chose to. Evidence would tell us that's impossible. It takes millions of years for a star to cease burning. Yet he could snuff one out tomorrow if he chose.

Evidence says that virgins cannot give birth. Yet in an instant God created a baby inside a virgin. Evidence says it's impossible for a man to rise from the dead after three days. Yet Christ did. Lazarus was raised from the dead by the power of God.

All the scientific evidence will tell you it's impossible for flour and oil to replenish itself. Yet by the power of God it did.

All scientific evidence says it's impossible for a few loaves and fish to feed 5000 people, yet by the power of God it did with food left over.

All scientific evidence will tell you it's impossible that a man who has been crippled or blind his entire life will see or walk again instantly. Yet by the power of God they did.

Can anyone truly fathom what God is capable of?

O the depth of the riches and the wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments! How unsearchable are his ways!For, ‘Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been his counselor?’Or, ‘Who has given him anything and made him pay it back?’For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. - Romans 11:33-36 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11:33-36 - Complete Jewish Bible


He has made everything suited to its time; also, he has given human beings an awareness of eternity; but in such a way that they can’t fully comprehend, from beginning to end, the things God does. - Ecclesiastes 3:11 Bible Gateway passage: Ecclesiastes 3:11 - Complete Jewish Bible

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways,” says Adonai.“As high as the sky is above the earth are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9 Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 55:8-9 - Complete Jewish Bible

Remember that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form and void. How long did the earth sit that way? How long were the heavens in existence before God began to form and create life on earth?

That we don't know. God doesn't list the time frame for that. In Genesis he focuses his attention on the earth and what he did there and how things happened for life to be on the earth. And he says how long it took him to do it. Which HE reiterates in Exodus. So God declares twice how long he took to create life on this planet and the things necessary for life to flourish here.

And since God does not lie we believe what he said. There can be no deception from God. Since God told us exactly how long he took then he is not deceiving anyone.

What about the "evidence" some may claim.
The answer is simply we are misunderstanding what is there and misunderstand what God did. But it takes millions of years for this or that. Does it? Is God unable to create a planet and universe fully formed with all the variety and intricacies and properties it contains? I think not. He said he did it. Therefore he did. It is we with our tiny little brains and our tiny little understanding that's the issue here. It's not God. It's us assuming we really have the knowledge and understanding of the power and complexity of God. This universe exists under the will of God. And he could completely extinguish it by his word if he chose to. Evidence would tell us that's impossible. It takes millions of years for a star to cease burning. Yet he could snuff one out tomorrow if he chose.

Evidence says that virgins cannot give birth. Yet in an instant God created a baby inside a virgin. Evidence says it's impossible for a man to rise from the dead after three days. Yet Christ did. Lazarus was raised from the dead by the power of God.

All the scientific evidence will tell you it's impossible for flour and oil to replenish itself. Yet by the power of God it did.

All scientific evidence says it's impossible for a few loaves and fish to feed 5000 people, yet by the power of God it did with food left over.

All scientific evidence will tell you it's impossible that a man who has been crippled or blind his entire life will see or walk again instantly. Yet by the power of God they did.

Can anyone truly fathom what God is capable of?

O the depth of the riches and the wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments! How unsearchable are his ways!For, ‘Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been his counselor?’Or, ‘Who has given him anything and made him pay it back?’For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. - Romans 11:33-36 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11:33-36 - Complete Jewish Bible


He has made everything suited to its time; also, he has given human beings an awareness of eternity; but in such a way that they can’t fully comprehend, from beginning to end, the things God does. - Ecclesiastes 3:11 Bible Gateway passage: Ecclesiastes 3:11 - Complete Jewish Bible

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways,” says Adonai.“As high as the sky is above the earth are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9 Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 55:8-9 - Complete Jewish Bible

rjs330 said:

Remember Jesus made water into very good wine? How long does it take to make top notch wine in those day? Why all the evidence would say it was impossible that the wine was created instantly.

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Or that a man can be bright back to life after being dead for 3 days. If people can’t believe in miracles they can’t believe the Bible. I see so many Christians that get hung up on defending the scriptures from atheists who try to present evidence that disproves certain events in the Bible of being possible, and I think they need to stop & realize that those events were never supposed to be explainable by any other means other than an act of God.

Jasper10 said:

The bible says what it says. Clearly, Moses was privy to information that you are not privy to.

What's the problem with that? No problem at all.

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Yes, whoever you were responding to, that the Bible means what it says is the case. I would have no argument against the Bible, but unbelievers would, and would argue for other bases for anything.

rjs330 said:

Remember that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form and void. How long did the earth sit that way? How long were the heavens in existence before God began to form and create life on earth?

That we don't know. God doesn't list the time frame for that. In Genesis he focuses his attention on the earth and what he did there and how things happened for life to be on the earth. And he says how long it took him to do it. Which HE reiterates in Exodus. So God declares twice how long he took to create life on this planet and the things necessary for life to flourish here.

And since God does not lie we believe what he said. There can be no deception from God.

Click to expand...

It is the perspective of the creation of everything on this earth and we are not shown how long there was created existence before that. We are not even shown how long the unformed earth was there, it is shown from when God was creating everything on it.

Ada Lovelace said:

It's been distressing and frustrating to me to read through some of the posts on here radiating with anguish that are written by sincere young Christians who feel like they are in a tug of war between their faith and science. I want to simply say - drop the rope. There is no need for conflict. >.< Science can enable us to see the glory of God's magnificently complex and sublime creations, and it's a shame for outdated theology to cause blinders and limitations. I expressed some of my thoughts on it, and my deep gratitude for my parents never once making evolution or other aspect of science an impediment for me in this post the other day:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7862120-3/#post67200028

In my personal life I've only ever encountered a handful of Christians who believe in creationism and don't "believe" in evolution, so being on here has been unsettling. I see it as a systematic tilting at the windmills. I know it has been for several other Christians in their teens and 20s as well. I've since learned that one of the leading reasons young Christians are leaving their faith is because of the perceived feud between religion and science. I don't think those who propagate creationism and anti-evolutionism are aware of how destructive it is, both to faith and science education. Fortunately progress is being made. I read an article last week about how 70% of evangelical Christians believe religion and science are compatible. I'll try to add the link the next time I pop on here from my laptop where I've saved it.

You're right that it's anachronistic and completely unnecessary. It's also history repeating itself. Copernicus, Interrupted (Part 1) | The BioLogos Forum

I've heard creationists make the claim that "science changes all the time" and is thus not as dependable as the Bible, but the thing is, hermeneutics of the scriptures have also changed. Literalism has historically been problematic and caused fractures and rifts. Feuds about geocentricism persisted for centuries, but now are viewed as preposterously archaic. Creationists have claimed that Darwin compromised the foundation of the church, but the irony is that Darwin's contemporaries, those who actually knew him, bestowed upon him the tremendous honor of burying him literally in the foundation of the church. He's buried in Westminster Abbey near Isaac Newton. It's mainly been a bruised ego reaction to the ridicule during the Scopes Trial and a desire to push back from literalism that fueled the growth of creationism and evolution denial in the 20th century. It's unreal that we still deal with it today. It never ceases to stun me. But I do have hope that we will continue to move forward with reason in one hand and our faith in the other. I hope by the time I have grandchildren anti-evolution rhetoric will be regarded as geocentricism finally is now.

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Until recently I belonged to a LCMS church for about 5 years and they are young earth creationists who reject evolution, though it was never preached on. My pastor knew I believe in an old earth, theistic evolution and was ok with it as long as I believed that God “could’ve“ made the earth in 6 literal days, 6000 years ago and that He “could’ve” done it by creating Adam from the dust of the ground. Well,of course He could have done those things because He’s God, but I don’t believe He did.

I read just about anything I could get my hands on, on the topic of creationism and I studied and studied but I still just don’t believe it. It was really, really bothering me that I didn’t believe what my church believed. So for the last three weeks I’ve been going back to a non denominational church I went to before, that has a mix of young earth believers and old earth believers. Some (I’ve heard that it’s probably the majority) believe in creationism rather than theistic evolution but they have believers of all kinds and this church focuses on Jesus and salvation issues, which the LCMS also said they do, too, yet young earth creationism is the official position of the church.