For Mark Kennedy - define mutation

[mark kennedy]

Apes to men is too easy for simply "describing" the mutations.

Bipedalism or Enlarged Brain (either could come first)
Increase of sexual dimorphism from common ancestor of Chimp and human to human
Loss of body hair

Four general mutational steps to change an ape to a man... or did you mean the specific changes in DNA?

For one thing apes to men is far from easy. For another thing loss of body hair is another thing that doesn't happen very easy. Then there is the matter of the nose that changes very dramaticlly. Maybe I'm the only one thinking about this, but there has to be a demonstrated mechanism for this to be science. I mean, really, if we don't have that then we are left with only one conclusion. We were allways human and we were never apes. Seems obvious to me but opinions vary.

 

[kingreaper]

For one thing apes to men is far from easy. For another thing loss of body hair is another thing that doesn't happen very easy. Then there is the matter of the nose that changes very dramaticlly. Maybe I'm the only one thinking about this, but there has to be a demonstrated mechanism for this to be science. I mean, really, if we don't have that then we are left with only one conclusion. We were allways human and we were never apes. Seems obvious to me but opinions vary.

So the differences in nose between humans and chimps is bigger than the one between poodles and bloodhounds?

The difference in hair is bigger than between a bald man and a man with a hairy head?

 

[Jet Black]

For another thing loss of body hair is another thing that doesn't happen very easy.

'cept we can observe it

Then there is the matter of the nose that changes very dramaticlly.

I agtee, black noses are very different to white noses, we must be separate creations, right?

Maybe I'm the only one thinking about this, but there has to be a demonstrated mechanism for this to be science.

it's called evolution. maybe zyou have heard of it

I mean, really, if we don't have that then we are left with only one conclusion. We were allways human and we were never apes. Seems obvious to me but opinions vary.

que?

 

[Tomk80]

For one thing apes to men is far from easy. For another thing loss of body hair is another thing that doesn't happen very easy.

Actually, it does. It is a matter of one or two small mutations, as is demonstrated in the rhinocerus mice for one, and in the disease alopecia universalis congenital for another.

However, we are not talking about hair loss specifically in humans. Look at your own skin. You have hair all over your body, it just isn't very long or very dark. IIRC, there is a family in Middle America with a mutation which gives them very dark and thick hairs, just like apes have. However, I couldn't find a reference for this, I'll try to find it. So it isn't even a matter of losing the hair, it's more a matter of it getting less dark and less thick. I'd say this is easily done within the boundaries of small variation over longer periods of time.

Then there is the matter of the nose that changes very dramaticlly. Maybe I'm the only one thinking about this, but there has to be a demonstrated mechanism for this to be science.

What, like in the beaks of galapagos finches. Do you accept that those changes came about through 'micro evolution'. If you do, what makes those big changes different from the changes in the shape of the nose. Have you ever looked at different noses from humans. There are quite a lot of different forms in there. None looks quite like an ape, but it isn't like it is unimaginable that this change is not possible if we have enough time.

I mean, really, if we don't have that then we are left with only one conclusion. We were allways human and we were never apes. Seems obvious to me but opinions vary.

Well, your obvious differences between humans and apes are differences of sizes, coloring and density. Not something in which we have observed no variety in within humans. Your first assertion about humans losing body hair is even demonstrably incorrect.
We are humans AND we are apes. That is hardly a matter of opinion, but a direct consequence of our observations and the ordering of the system of Linnaeus derived from that.

 

[mark kennedy]

Ug says the caveman...


I am going to leave you with that thought, untill I get tired of chess again.

 

[Jet Black]

people can be hairy too

http://www.luna.co.uk/~charles/hairy3.htm

the condition is called hypertrichosis and results in hair patterns far closer to other mammals, although female hypertrichosis is rather asymmetrical.

http://evolution.massey.ac.nz/lecture4/docs/hypertri.htm

this is separate from Hirsuitism, which is excessive androgen linked hair growth (results in bearded ladies)

 

[Tomk80]

people can be hairy too

http://www.luna.co.uk/~charles/hairy3.htm

the condition is called hypertrichosis and results in hair patterns far closer to other mammals, although female hypertrichosis is rather asymmetrical.

http://evolution.massey.ac.nz/lecture4/docs/hypertri.htm

this is separate from Hirsuitism, which is excessive androgen linked hair growth (results in bearded ladies)

Ah, that was the hairy human I was thinking about (as opposed to the hairless of which I did find references). Caveman salut! UGH!

 

[EmSchmem]

i once knew a mark kennedy.... hmmmm. wonder what happened to him....

 

[Aron-Ra]

For one thing apes to men is far from easy. For another thing loss of body hair is another thing that doesn't happen very easy. Then there is the matter of the nose that changes very dramaticlly.

Didn't you already tell me you believed all monkeys were biologically related to each other? Meaning that each of their species evolved from a common ancestor monkey? Well, that being the case, if you think the shape of the nose is such an issue, then how do you explain this?

"Ah cha cha cha. I got a million of 'em"

By the way, one of the defining features of Old World monkeys is that their noses are more like humans than those of the New World monkeys.

I once knew a man who had a very gorilla-like nose, complete with the enormous flares on the nostrils. He also had a pronounced brow and lower jaw, and tiny, elevated ears. His head was even crested! This guy really really looked like a gorilla! He looked as least as much like a gorilla as Jimmy Durante looked like a proboscus monkey.

He was a substitute teacher in my high school. The first time I saw him, he stunned the class to silence. He burst into the room on short legs with a big belly, and leaned over the desk on his knuckles, eyeing the class menacingly, and moving his mouth the way gorillas do when they're contemplating something. Dispite his fearsome appearance, a small voice in the class was heard to whisper "Kong!", which became his secret nick name from then on.

I remember thinking how great it would be if this guy taught evolution! Dissenters would take one look at the teacher, and give up the fight.

Maybe I'm the only one thinking about this, but there has to be a demonstrated mechanism for this to be science.

Didn't you just tell me you weren't questioning the mechanism, only the implications?

 

[Jet Black]

He was a substitute teacher in my high school. The first time I saw him, he stunned the class to silence. He burst into the room on short legs with a big belly, and leaned over the desk on his knuckles, eyeing the class menacingly, and moving his mouth the way gorillas do when they're contemplating something. Dispite his fearsome appearance, a small voice in the class was heard to whisper "Kong!", which became his secret nick name from then on.

I remember thinking how great it would be if this guy taught evolution! Dissenters would take one look at the teacher, and give up the fight.

best anecdote ever.