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Let's start with information provided at lds.org:
Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christians?
1 What is a Christian? The term is found three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16), but it is not defined in any of those passages. According to Websters Third New International Dictionary, the term Christian may be defined in a number of ways, but the most common is one who believes or professes to believe in Jesus Christ and the truth as taught by him one whose life is conformed to the doctrines of Christ. The second most common meaning is a member of a church or group professing Christian doctrine or belief.
Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christians? New Era, May 1998
Let's look at LDS scripture which can't be construed by LDS as being merely speculation:
Doctrine and Covenants 84
33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.
34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth . . . (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pp. 164-165)
IOW, all but the LDS are outside the true Church. If Christ is the cornerstone of His Church and only Mormons are in that Church, where does that leave the rest of us?
Brigham Young stated:
Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10:230)
Was he only speculating?
LDS scripture:
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.
For those who haven't accepted Mormonism, LDS scripture says that they can come under Satan's power by having only the Bible as scripture:
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13
29 ...because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of Godbecause of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
1 Nephi 13Â[bless and do not curse]
I am fairly certain that I have addressed this already.
Actually, you did not yet in this thread. You did agree that non-LDS cannot achieve the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom. The question here is much broader which is whether or not non-LDS Christians can even enter the Celestial Kingdom. As I understand the teachings of your church non-LDS people might hope for the Terrestial or Telestial Kingdoms, but certainly not the Celestial Kingdom. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Here is my previous response: "If a person is not willing to do all that God asks them to do then they can not obtain the fullness of Heaven."
That is the answer to your question. It can be applied to the Celestial, Telestial, and Terrestrial glories.
Yes. Let's do that....
Once again, this does not provide a meaning for the word Christian. Nor does it provide an understanding of how LDS view that term. If anything it supports what I have previously said, the LDS are not just one of the family of Christian churches. He recognizes the other churches as Christian.Phoebe Ann said:This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth . . . (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pp. 164-165)...
Phoebe Ann said:Brigham Young stated:
Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 230)
That Brigham was a card. I wouldn't say that he was speculating, but he sure was offering his opinion. The Journal of Discourse does not represent the official view of the Church. It is not accepted as a doctrinal source. If you have to resort to the JoD to prove your point, I believe you have lost the debate.
However, I notice that even here Brigham still refers to them as "other Christians." And then expresses a view that they fail to meet the standards as set out by the Bible. Clearly, he is using this method of declaration to make a point. Which translates to: Christians should act like Christians.
Because this post was very, very long and my time is limited I will address only part of it at this time.
Unfortunately you are misrepresenting what Ezra Taft Benson said. You changed the word a to the:
"This is not just one of a family of Christian churches."
Ezra Taft Benson
(bold mine)
He never said that there are many Christian churches and Joseph Smith didn't either! Joseph Smith claimed that they were all wrong! Would you like a reference?
Can someone be a Christian and be of Anti-christ?
I will now give my scripture"Whosoever confesseth that Joseph Smith was sent of God ... that spirit is of God; and every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Anti-christ ... (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 176).
Sorry...I've run out of time.
It would be more accurate to state the Third Article of Faith and explain what the word Gospel means in that article:
Additional Information
In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).
Many times the omission of information leaves the question unanswered.
Because this post was very, very long and my time is limited I will address only part of it at this time.
"If persons separate themselves from the Lords church, they thereby separate themselves from his means of salvation, for salvation is through the Church."
LDS today will call others Christians, but as I have shown, it ain't good enough to be a Christian.
I think part of that is because they have redefined what Christianity is. As much as they say we don't understand what LDSism really is, even though several here have been LDS (or part of the restoration), they don't understand Christianity past what they have been force-fed about what Christianity is. It is clear, to me, at least, that they rely on the age old LDS belief in what Christianity is and what we believe, while neither one of them is true. If they understood what we believe about Christ/Christianity, they would understand that being a Christian is synonymous with living with God in glory.
The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service. Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service. And I don't know what you mean by us being force fed about Christianity. I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be. I disagree with how some define it.
The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service. Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service. And I don't know what you mean by us being force fed about Christianity. I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be. I disagree with how some define it.
The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service. Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service. And I don't know what you mean by us being force fed about Christianity. I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be. I disagree with how some define it.
What about the converts from other Christian faiths? I would think that they have an understanding of Christianity that is seperate from anything that might possibly come from the LDS.
...If they understood what we believe about Christ/Christianity, they would understand that being a Christian is synonymous with living with God in glory.
The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service.
Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service.
I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be.
The problem is that either God requires certain steps to show that we are humble and submissive to the will of God, or we can claim we are, but make no effort to do so. Either God gave us laws and commandments to live by or he did not. How can we show that we are sincere if there is no effort to show that. If a person says he is saved, but shows no signs of it, then it is just lip service. Perhaps that person only puts forth third attemp and can claim salvation. There has to be consistancy. In what I gather from mainstream Christians all one has to do to be saved is lip service. And I don't know what you mean by us being force fed about Christianity. I have learned by my self what you and others believe Christianity to be. I disagree with how some define it.
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