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For creationists: give me your arguments against evolution.

SkyWriting

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Ya know...this is the second or third time someone's posted this thing, but what are they all? What is each one from A-L? Anyone can put together a bunch of skulls. Us "non-science believing" Creationists need a bit more info....

The source is not clear. It seems to have been cut up
and reframed a lot.

Here is a bit more info....


 
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Loudmouth

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Assuming a common origin based on perceived similarities is bad science.


Bad science is your continued feigned ignorance of what we have told you many times now.

Evolution is not evidenced simply by similarities. Let me repeat that. EVOLUTION IS NOT EVIDENCED SIMPLY BY SIMILARITIES. Let it sink in until you will be able to remember it the next time you try to make this fallacious argument. We all agree that a common designer could produce species with similarities in the same way that cars have similarities. What you and your creationists cohorts forget is that it is the PATTERN of similarities that separates common design from common ancestry.

The pattern of similarity that evidences evolution is a nested hierarchy.

Lines of Evidence: Nested Hierarchies

Common design does not produce this pattern of similarity. Cars do not fall into a nested hierarchy of shared and derived features. Planes do not fall into a nested hierarchy of shared and derived features. The same applies to buildings, paintings, and computer programs. Complex life DOES fall into a nested hierarchy, just as it should if life evolved.

To help you understand this concept (even though I am sure you will try to forget it right away for the tenth time), can you explain to me why the common designer of mammals and birds could not produce a species with a mixture of mammal and bird features?
 
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Loudmouth

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The source is not clear. It seems to have been cut up
and reframed a lot.

Here is a bit more info....



There is enough of each skull for you to tell us what criteria you use to determine if a fossil is transitional, and if any of these fossils fit those criteria.
 
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Loudmouth

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[making the sound of thinking] actually I personally think that someone is designing everything that we see in creation.

Then why did the designer go out of its way to make life fall into a nested hierarchy? Why did the designer expend extra effort to make it look like life evolved over hundreds of millions of years?

I doubt I will ever accept the natural selection process.

In science, dogmatic positions are strongly frowned upon. In my experience, people only take a dogmatic position when the evidence is stacked against them.
 
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TheImmortalJellyfish

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The thing that gets me about creationists is that they often refuse to accept the very evidence they ask for. My post above has a picture with various hominid transitionals, for your perusal.

I didn't single out evolutionists at all. I said "the thing that gets me about evolution" implying the concept, which is what this OP was about. And quite frankly, you don't have enough evidence for me to accept anything. Nice pic, btw...I also have a picture of Jesus. Wanna see?




Brain size determines intelligence? So elephants should be freakin' geniuses? There's gotta be more to it than that, surely...



Evolution doesn't make decisions.

That's why I put "decided" in quotes. It's the only way I could convey what I was trying to ask...it's just an anthropomorphism.

Evolution no more decided that chimps wouldn't talk than it decided that humans would. It just so happened that the right mutations happened at the right time and right environment to drive our species towards big brains that were capable of speech.

"It just so happened"? Why? How? When?

What was the determining factor involved in the evolution of jaw muscle-to bone structure-to cranial volume? Why didn't the brain get smaller when the jaw muscles did? Why did the cranial bones become thinner?
What causes things to increase in size? Why was the human brain the only one to "get bigger and smarter"?
 
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Loudmouth

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I didn't single out evolutionists at all. I said "the thing that gets me about evolution" implying the concept, which is what this OP was about. And quite frankly, you don't have enough evidence for me to accept anything.

What features would a fossil need in order for you to accept it as transitional between modern humans and a common ancestor shared with apes?

It is my contention that no amount of evidence will change your mind. Am I wrong?

Nice pic, btw...I also have a picture of Jesus. Wanna see?

Call me when you have fossils of Jesus. What I showed you are not just pictures. They are real fossils. All you are demonstrating is your unwillingness to address the evidence.

Brain size determines intelligence?

In primates, the ratio of brain size to body mass is what largely determines intelligence.

That's why I put "decided" in quotes. It's the only way I could convey what I was trying to ask...it's just an anthropomorphism.


"It just so happened"? Why? How? When?

I just showed you a scientific paper with a why, how, and when.


It is right there in the abstract. Read it. Focus on the part where it says, "frameshifting mutation".
 
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SkyWriting

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There is enough of each skull for you to tell us what criteria you use to determine if a fossil is transitional, and if any of these fossils fit those criteria.

By creationist standards there are no transitional fossils, just an amazing variation off the original created kinds.

By Scientific standards, there are no "original kinds" to transition between and every fossil is "transitional."
 
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Loudmouth

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By creationist standards there are no transitional fossils, just an amazing variation off the original created kinds.

By what criteria? What are the physical characteristics in fossils that support this position?

By Scientific standards, there are no "original kinds" to transition between and every fossil is "transnational."

How do you determine what an original kind is?
 
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SkyWriting

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To help you understand this concept can you explain to me why the common designer of mammals and birds could not produce a species with a mixture of mammal and bird features?

Trick question? I'm missing the trick.

 
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TheImmortalJellyfish

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What features would a fossil need in order for you to accept it as transitional between modern humans and a common ancestor shared with apes?

It is my contention that no amount of evidence will change your mind. Am I wrong?

Evidence of what, exactly?


Call me when you have fossils of Jesus. What I showed you are not just pictures. They are real fossils. All you are demonstrating is your unwillingness to address the evidence.

....of what?



In primates, the ratio of brain size to body mass is what largely determines intelligence.

By that logic, we should have tall, large people with incredible intelligence while short, stocky people exhibit severe learning disability. How does one explain this issue?





I just showed you a scientific paper with a why, how, and when.



It is right there in the abstract. Read it. Focus on the part where it says, "frameshifting mutation".

I see..."Myosin gene mutation". Okay. Thanks.
 
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SkyWriting

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By what criteria? What are the physical characteristics in fossils that support this position?

How do I support the observation of variation?
You've stumped me.



How do you determine what an original kind is?

I don't imagine specifics about past events that are
not thoroughly documented in writing.
If I can't reproduce the event, then it is outside
of scientific examination.
 
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Loudmouth

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Evidence of what, exactly?

Evidence of shared ancestry between humans and chimps, in the form of genetic evidence.

Evidence of morphological transitionals between humans and a common ancestor with other apes, in the form of fossils. My question before still stands.

What features would a fossil need in order for you to accept it as transitional between modern humans and a common ancestor shared with apes?


....of what?

Evidence of fossils with transitional morphology between humans and a common ancestor shared with apes.

By that logic, we should have tall, large people with incredible intelligence while short, stocky people exhibit severe learning disability. How does one explain this issue?

Bigger, taller people tend to have larger brains which means that the weight to brain size is similar between small and big people.
 
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Loudmouth

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How do I support the observation of variation?

You are making CLAIMS about nature. Namely, you are claiming that none of those fossils are transitional. What evidence supports this claim?

I don't imagine specifics about past events that are
not thoroughly documented in writing.
If I can't reproduce the event, then it is outside
of scientific examination.

What is it about the morphology of fossils that can't be reproduced?
 
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SkyWriting

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I was actually gonna post the very same thing, myself...figured it was way too easy tho...


I'm sure it was a old thought floating around. It just happened to
land in the wrong attack sentence. I would have picked Mammal & Plant.
That would stump me.
 
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Loudmouth

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Trick question? I'm missing the trick.

Obviously, you have missed it.

Is it your contention that the bill of the platypus should have more in common with a duck than a human? Would a common designer of the platypus, human, and duck make the platypus jaw more like a duck, or a human?

What are your answers?
 
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SkyWriting

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You are making CLAIMS about nature. Namely, you are claiming that none of those fossils are transitional. What evidence supports this claim?

Categories are all man made. Nature does not create labels.

It is common for MAN to use breeding as a dividing line between species
but the categorization is arbitrary.

Evidence for that claim? There are 15 or so definitions for species.
 
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Loudmouth

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Categories are all man made. Nature does not create labels.

Morphology is created by nature, and that is what we are comparing.

It is common for MAN to use breeding as a dividing line between species
but the categorization is arbitrary.

What features would a fossil need in order for you to accept it as transitional between modern humans and a common ancestor shared with apes?
 
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SkyWriting

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Obviously, you have missed it.

Is it your contention that the bill of the platypus should have more in common with a duck than a human?

No? I'm content with the current design?

Would a common designer of the platypus, human, and duck make the platypus jaw more like a duck, or a human? What are your answers?

A great designer would have allowed for the current
design to work just as we find it?
 
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TheImmortalJellyfish

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Basically, LM, we would need to see all these things continuing to happen today. There are no "transitionals" in existence today, walking around with us. We have chimps and we have humans, but the only "evidence" we can gather for the in-betweens is remnants? Why'd they all have to go away? I don't want to see a fossil attached to some supposed timeline. I want to see one of my "ancestors" that is not a homo sapien sapiens, and not a chimpanzee. Alive. Today. Instead, we have point A, and point L, but B-K are just fossils.



Bigger, taller people tend to have larger brains which means that the weight to brain size is similar between small and big people.

Big people have big brains. Small people have small brains. I still don't see the "size matters" logic involved here...if a midget outsmarts a 7' tall person on Jeopardy! would that falsify this claim?
 
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