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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
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DerSchweik
Spend time in His Word - every day
- Aug 31, 2007
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Eric,
Hope you'll reconsider and hang in there. Appreciate your contributions and your passion for conservative issues, particularly in Christianity.
Hope you'll reconsider and hang in there. Appreciate your contributions and your passion for conservative issues, particularly in Christianity.
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Simon_Templar
Not all who wander are lost
This might sound 'liberal' and if it comes across that way to anyone, I hope they take the time to really think about what I'm saying, rather than just writing it off.
Also, this isn't meant specifically to be targeted at you T2BC, but is something for all of us conservative Christians to consider.
I have spent A LOT of time discussing, debating, arguing etc with almost every view point or belief you can think of over the years.
From the time I first went to a state college, up to today, I have constantly been butting heads with other view points.
One of the most annoying things, and one of the sources of many of the heated arguments etc, is the fact that in many, probably most conversations, neither side actually listens to what the other has to say.
In my own experience looking back, I know that I regularly used strawman arguments against my opponents in debate, not intentionally, but simply because I wasn't bothering to try and really understand their view point. I was simply listening long enough to figure out which argument I shoul duse to refute their view point.
I still find myself doing that from time to time. I hear someone saying something, I assume I know what they mean and I jump to the refutation of what I think they mean... only to find out later that my assumption did not really match up to their true view point.
In the world of logic and philosophy it is a very simple matter to pull down people's beliefs and arguments if you spend your time looking at their view only from the perspective of trying to find holes in it. This is why skepticism is always the best (in terms of winning) and easiest position in any debate on any issue.
The problem there is that you will never have meaningful conversations with people that way and usually it will just result in heated emotions and hurt feelings.
It is much harder, and often times much more uncomfortable to approach a conversation from the stand point of trying to understand another person's beliefs and views AS THEY understand them. However, it is about the only way you will ever truly speak to people and be a witness to people where they are at.
I still fail at this all the time because its in my nature to leap to assumptions that I already understand the other person's view point and simply run from what I assume their views to be.
If you really want to impact people, instead of just angering them, you have to try to understand their view point as they see it, before you start telling them how it is.
There is no need to leave Eric, nor is there any need to stop talking about important issues etc. However, we all need to stop assuming we know everyone else's beliefs better than they do, and we need to stop assuming that we know other people's motivations based on a few sparse conversations.
Our cause is not hurt by seeking to understand the views of others before we present them with ours. Our cause is not hurt by talking to people as though they were honest and above board.. even if they really aren't.
Its kind of a pascal's wager situation. We have nothing to lose by pursuing conversations based on the best assumptions about people and we have much to gain. On the other hand we have everything to lose if we begin basing our statements off of assumption and hasty conclusion, and really, we gain nothing by this.
The real temptation there is that it feels good to be right. It makes us feel wise if we 'intuit' something and are right about it, rather than simply allowing the peices to fall where they may and risking that we could be wrong by assuming the best about people.
Also, this isn't meant specifically to be targeted at you T2BC, but is something for all of us conservative Christians to consider.
I have spent A LOT of time discussing, debating, arguing etc with almost every view point or belief you can think of over the years.
From the time I first went to a state college, up to today, I have constantly been butting heads with other view points.
One of the most annoying things, and one of the sources of many of the heated arguments etc, is the fact that in many, probably most conversations, neither side actually listens to what the other has to say.
In my own experience looking back, I know that I regularly used strawman arguments against my opponents in debate, not intentionally, but simply because I wasn't bothering to try and really understand their view point. I was simply listening long enough to figure out which argument I shoul duse to refute their view point.
I still find myself doing that from time to time. I hear someone saying something, I assume I know what they mean and I jump to the refutation of what I think they mean... only to find out later that my assumption did not really match up to their true view point.
In the world of logic and philosophy it is a very simple matter to pull down people's beliefs and arguments if you spend your time looking at their view only from the perspective of trying to find holes in it. This is why skepticism is always the best (in terms of winning) and easiest position in any debate on any issue.
The problem there is that you will never have meaningful conversations with people that way and usually it will just result in heated emotions and hurt feelings.
It is much harder, and often times much more uncomfortable to approach a conversation from the stand point of trying to understand another person's beliefs and views AS THEY understand them. However, it is about the only way you will ever truly speak to people and be a witness to people where they are at.
I still fail at this all the time because its in my nature to leap to assumptions that I already understand the other person's view point and simply run from what I assume their views to be.
If you really want to impact people, instead of just angering them, you have to try to understand their view point as they see it, before you start telling them how it is.
There is no need to leave Eric, nor is there any need to stop talking about important issues etc. However, we all need to stop assuming we know everyone else's beliefs better than they do, and we need to stop assuming that we know other people's motivations based on a few sparse conversations.
Our cause is not hurt by seeking to understand the views of others before we present them with ours. Our cause is not hurt by talking to people as though they were honest and above board.. even if they really aren't.
Its kind of a pascal's wager situation. We have nothing to lose by pursuing conversations based on the best assumptions about people and we have much to gain. On the other hand we have everything to lose if we begin basing our statements off of assumption and hasty conclusion, and really, we gain nothing by this.
The real temptation there is that it feels good to be right. It makes us feel wise if we 'intuit' something and are right about it, rather than simply allowing the peices to fall where they may and risking that we could be wrong by assuming the best about people.
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- Sep 5, 2005
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I think we need to pray more and type less =0)~
I totally understand why you'de feel this way and how frustrating it can get, but I think over time it can snap back to normal.
for you!
I'm trying to get in the habit of typing my response in works - then I can leave it for a few minutes and come back and decide what needs to be deleted before posting. Just taking the time to step back first seems to be improving my commentary.
There's a lot of good here - none of us want to lose that.
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Apollo Celestio
Deal with it.
- Jul 11, 2007
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D'Ann
Catholic... Faith, Hope and the greatest is LOVE
I didn't think you were being dramatic... just honest with what is going on in your head. It's good to be open and speak what's in your heart. That is one of the reasons why you fit in here perfectly and nicely. You are my brother in Christ and this place wouldn't be right without you. I'm glad that you are here and staying.
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Tangeloper
Happy New Year!
- Jul 29, 2007
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ReformedChapin
Chapin = Guatemalan
But why since our deductions to different arguments will be validated by our presuppositions? One cannot renounce them, even you mr philosophy.
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Simon_Templar
Not all who wander are lost
well, the key issue here is probably bound up in the difference between our view points. I'm not reformed, and ultimately don't agree with the foundational presmises of presuppositional apologetics.But why since our deductions to different arguments will be validated by our presuppositions? One cannot renounce them, even you mr philosophy.
However, when talking to people, you also have to realize that most people are not terribly logical and they themselves probably don't fully understand the logical implications of their beliefs, or their presuppositions.
This is why so many people hold views that are ultimately inherently contradictory.
This is why Atheists often hold view points that ultimately require or depend upon theism. They don't really understand the logical implications of their own beliefs, so they beliefs which can be contradictory to their stated presuppositions.
I'm not sure if this is exactly where you were going, or where you were coming from, but the foundation of presuppositional apologetics is a reformed belief that the unsaved are compeltely incapable of understanding God's truth, because of their false presuppositions. Also it leans towards the idea that apologetics in a traditional sense is useless because ultimately no one can be saved by argumentation, but rather God predestines those who will be saved, and enlightens their minds etc.
The problem with this, from my view point, even allowing the basic reformed doctrines of predestination etc, is that it makes assumptions about how God will chose to work and how he will call the unsaved.
An unsaved person can not understand God's truth, however, you and your conversation with them may be the tool that God has chosen to enlighten them. Thus it is your duty to know how to speak to them.
going beyond that, presuppositional apologetics tends to have an indifferent view towards the unsaved. The problem is that we don't know who is predestined and who is not, thus we have no right to start judging who we have to care about and who we don't.
The approach of so many people in just viewing the unsaved as numbers, or notches on our belt, is ultimately uncarring, and people can usually tell whether you care about them or not, whether you have any basic level of respect for them, by whether or not you take the time to try and understand them... before telling them what they actually believe
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