For better or worse?

[Armistead]

Not wanting to derail other threads on divorce, I wanted to ask this question.

You can do your own studies, but 100's of years ago the christian church created basic vows of marriage based on biblical rule. Of course during this time women had little rights. Many teach that adultery is the only cause of divorce...nothing else allows a biblical divorce. Women have stayed in physically abusive marriages, sometimes until death keeping these vows.

We talk about illness. What if a person is so mentally ill that they become unbearable...

Is it time the church removes the lines in "sickness and in health" and "for better or worse? Were these just legalisic vows to trap people in unhappy and unsafe marriages?

 

[HuntingMan]

Id feel safe in assuming that those who created the marriage vow had the best intent in mind. I dont think they wrote them in order to trap anyone in abuse.
What I think also is that marriage isnt about two separate covenants but is ONE covenant between the two (and before God) and that when ONE side breaks that covenant then the other does have right to end it if need be.

Some fallaciously believe that because both say vows that each side is kept to those vows separately but that is ridiculous. Marriage is a covenant created by God of TWO persons agreeing to abide by that covenant.

Concerning illness, that is altogether a different matter. If my wife was UNABLE to fulfill her responsibilities of our covenant nothing would change as far as my love, actions and behavior towards her.
If, however, she decided that she wanted a 'platonic' relationship without a valid reason personally I believe after a time Id probably divorce her.

 

[billwald]

>If, however, she decided that she wanted a 'platonic' relationship without a valid reason personally I believe after a time Id probably divorce her.

WHY? Is it all that important that someone else should massage your whatever for you? Can't scratch your own itches?

 

[mont974x4]

>If, however, she decided that she wanted a 'platonic' relationship without a valid reason personally I believe after a time Id probably divorce her.

WHY? Is it all that important that someone else should massage your whatever for you? Can't scratch your own itches?

I would say it's an issue of biblical obedience and what is a key part of the God ordained marriage relationship. God gave us sex for a multitude of reasons. One being creating unity within the marriage..a key in any healthy marriage. Another key issue is to guard against sin. Of course, the Bible also says that we should only withhold sex when both people agree and that is for a time of prayer. One could also argue that shutting off ones spouse is the same as emotional abandonment.

It has nothing to do with simply scratching an itch.

 

[HuntingMan]

>If, however, she decided that she wanted a 'platonic' relationship without a valid reason personally I believe after a time Id probably divorce her.

WHY? Is it all that important that someone else should massage your whatever for you? Can't scratch your own itches?

Just as I said....if it were the man refusing to spend time with his wife....or provide shelter and food for her...some here would be screaming foul to the rooftops.
Let either spouse simply deny the ONE thing that a man and wife have that symbolizes the closeness and unity between them and the other is some sex crazed pervert fiend.

I didnt marry my wife to be just a friend. I married her, as she married me, to be HUSBAND AND WIFE...and if some here do not understand what that includes then they have NO business BEING married or dragging another innocent person into marriage with them.

Marriage INCLUDES sexual relations....being ONE FLESH....get it ?
And quite frankly your argument is with God and Paul, poster...not me. GOD says they two will be ONE FLESH, and PAUL is the one who says to marry if one cannot contain.
I guess you accuse God and Paul of whatever it is you are accusing me of then ?

Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
(1Co 7:3-5)

 

[HuntingMan]

I would say it's an issue of biblical obedience and what is a key part of the God ordained marriage relationship.

absolutely.
Just as we are to honor ALL of our responsibilities in our marriages...and that includes FAR more than sexual intimacy.
But its only intimacy that seemingly can be stripped from a marriage and be ok in the minds of some, typically the female gender, sometimes men tho.

Let someone stop feeding their spouse...let them fail to provide shelter....and folks will cry out how horrible the person is.
But if a wife decides to strip out the one thing that a man and wife have between them that represents the closeness they ought to share and its the one being denied who is doing something wrong by even daring to question the decision of the one refusing to consummate the union.
I thank God my wife really understands what marriage is and doesnt play these games.

Of course, the Bible also says that we should only withhold sex when both people agree and that is for a time of prayer.

Absolutely. But apparently Paul just didnt know what he was talking about.

One could also argue that shutting off ones spouse is the same as emotional abandonment.
It has nothing to do with simply scratching an itch.

AMEN.
When a wife rejects a husband physically, she often will believe that its only about sex. If women truly understood that it isnt about sex they might realize the damage they are doing to their marriages that often is never repaired.
Im sorry to be so blunt, but I have hands....If I just needed physical release I know how to use them and I have a bathroom I can go hide in for 5 minutes.
And quite frankly a person knows more about pleasing themselves than someone else ever will....Im quite sure I could do the job just as good as my wife, no offense.

But that ISNT what consummation in the marriage is about...or ought to be about.
When a wife denies her husband without cause she is stripping her marriage of the unity, of the closeness that many wives CLAIM they want to have.

Ladies...if you want to destroy your marriages just keep believing that intimacy is only about sexual release with your husbands. The damage you do is certainly going to be noticeable soon enough....


.

 

[Armistead]

Our Pastor, dealing with many issues of abuse, no longer uses these common lines. I think the church should drop them. For those that want
to marry in the church, I think both should take a marriage class and sign
a covenant agreement and use those vows.

 

[Celticflower]

Drop the "for better or worse, sickness or health" etc vows? What will it be replaced by? "We'll stay together until things get a little rough and then I'm outa here. Good luck sucker you're on your own"?

I thought the whole idea of those vows was promising to stay committed to the marriage and the marriage partner no matter what the future holds. And it goes both ways. The only thing I would change (and many have) is the word "obey" -- I'd prefer "respect".

 

[HuntingMan]

I guess we can vow anything we want to vow as long as we arent fooling ourselves into believing that those vows nullify the RULES for marriage given by the Creator of marriage.

That and also that we have no authority to try to stop divorce. Paul, Christs chosen apostle, says that we are to let the unbeliever leave....we are called to peace...nothing in there about fighting the divorce or trying to force them to stay together if theyve decided to divorce.
The church has not been given authority to do anything beyond disassociating with someone they believe to be in sin. It has no authority to try to stop divorce and force anyone to remain married, Im sorry to say.

As long as GODS rules are seen as the final authority in the matter, it really doesnt concern me what vows are created and given.

 

[dayhiker]

I think that your pastor is doing a wise thing. To me the covenate of marriage is between the two people with God the authority over the two in the agreement they vow to.

So to go over the vows with the couple and they personally agree to each phrase as to what they want ... I think that should help them know and obey the vows they do make.
dayhiker

Our Pastor, dealing with many issues of abuse, no longer uses these common lines. I think the church should drop them. For those that want
to marry in the church, I think both should take a marriage class and sign
a covenant agreement and use those vows.

 

[mont974x4]

We (the Church) has done a poor job, for the most part, in teaching people the godly view of vows and the seriousness of them. Addressing that would be a huge step in pre-marriage understandings of the decisions involved.