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For BAPTISTS on baptism.

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BT

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This thread is for baptists only. (has it occurred to anyone else that we shouldn't have to write this out all the time?)


John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

There are three possible interpretations of this verse. Which do you believe?
 

@@Paul@@

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BT said:
This thread is for baptists only. (has it occurred to anyone else that we shouldn't have to write this out all the time?)


John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

There are three possible interpretations of this verse. Which do you believe?
You're not even going to give us the three possible interpretations? :)

Are they:
1. the kingdom of God is a reference to the millenial kingdom which one needed to be baptized in water (baptism of repentance) AND be baptized with the Holy Ghost (and with fire) to gain entrance.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:​
2. Water and Spirit are referring to the same act by which we are saved.
3. Water is a referrence to water baptism, Spirit is a referrence to Spirit Baptism. Both of which are required to be saved.
 
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Cright

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BT said:
This thread is for baptists only. (has it occurred to anyone else that we shouldn't have to write this out all the time?)


John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

There are three possible interpretations of this verse. Which do you believe?

I was tought that this passage was referring to being born "of water" as your natural birth. (Think of a woman saying "my water broke"). ...and then being born "of the Spirit" being when you accept Christ.

hmmm

This is one I had asked a couple pastors and a couple friends who are great w/ the bible and researching orig. lang too. I wish I still had the email on this vs. I had some wonderful responces.. will have to look again :|

God Bless,
Carina
 
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BT

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Hey everyone. Some great posts on this. I didn't put up the three possibilties because I wanted to see if they were actual possibilities that were believed or just so much theological conjecture.

The first two theories are thus:

1) The passage deals with baptism as essential to salvation (speaking of immersion baptism)
2) The passage deals with the natural birth (from your mom) in that you pass through water.

I will get to the third idea. What I'm going to do is post a mini-paper that I had to write for a soteriology (doctrine of salvation) class that I took. In this paper I present the two ideas mentioned above, and side with idea #2. As Cright has posted in her post.

k, here's the (mini) paper..

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."


According to John 3:5 is baptism necessary for Salvation? Is Jesus telling Nicodemus, and vicariously the body of all believers, that without baptism a person cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven? Some theologians have purported that this is the case while others have opposed the opinion. This scripture, I believe, supports the case of plenary interpretation. With examination using plain, literal and common usage we are able to accomplish the actual meaning of the verse.

The first point to notice is that this verse is actually an answer to a question. During this discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus we find the first instance of the doctrine of regeneration revealed. In verse 3 of this same chapter Jesus has explained the necessity of the second birth, or regeneration, in admittance to the kingdom of God. While Nicodemus was certainly a spiritual man, a member of the Sanhedrin, this concept confused him a great deal. In obvious bewilderment Nicodemus asked Jesus "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?" It is in answer to this question that Jesus offers the explanation of verse 5. To interpret the answer accurately we ought to look first at the question. Nicodemus did not ask Jesus what steps were necessary for a second birth; rather he asked him whether or not a man could be physically born again. In answer to this question Jesus explained that aside from the natural or physical birth through water, a second spiritual birth through spirit was required. The next verse in the conversation further develops this idea "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Again we have the division between the natural birth and the spiritual birth explained. The question that was asked did not include the steps to regeneration, and the answer likewise does not explain the necessity of belief, confession or any of the other Biblical requirements toward salvation. It is therefore not logical for baptism to figure into the answer at all. The contrast is clearly between the birth of an infant and the birth of the spirit.

We have learned that both the sinner and God have a part in regeneration. The part of the sinner is to believe and receive the salvation that is freely offered through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. The greater and miraculous part of regeneration, however, belongs to God alone. Charles Hodge in his "Systematic Theology" defines the new birth as thus, "The soul enters upon a new state. It is introduced into a new world. A whole class of objects before unknown or unappreciated are revealed to it, and exercise upon it their appropriate influence. The "things of the Spirit" become the chief objects of desire and pursuit, and all the energies of the new-born soul are directed towards the spiritual, as distinguished from the seen and temporal."2 I find it sad and somewhat typical that man would insert himself as a part of the miraculous aspect of regeneration. To believe that without man baptizing, a sinner would be sent to hell though he had believed that God raised Jesus from the dead and confessed with his mouth that Jesus is Lord is not only contrary to such scriptures as Romans 10:9 it is prideful to say the least. Some of the same people who berate Roman Catholics for belief that the sacraments will ensure salvation practice the same trust in the belief that baptism is mandatory for salvation.


*That's the end of the paper**

Ok there is one more interpretation that I will post tomorrow (because I'm tired... real tired). Basically the third interpretation claims that neither water baptism, or birth (the baby passes through a kind of water) is the correct interpretation. It feels that the reference to water is symbolic. Just something to mull over....

BT
 
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JM

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IMO, The 'water' is a type for the washing of regeneration done by the word.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Another type...

Exo 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Christ is the rock, etc, etc...
 
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Crazy Liz

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BT said:
This thread is for baptists only. (has it occurred to anyone else that we shouldn't have to write this out all the time?)

:mad:

BT, as an Anabaptist (Mennonite/Quaker) I am highly offended by this remark.

When someone says a thread is for Baptists only, I assume you mean you don't want people like me to post a response. However, I belong in Baptist/Anabaptist. I feel this forum is becoming increasingly unfriendly to Anabaptists and Quakers.

This forum does not belong to Baptists only, but to Baptists, Anabaptists and Quakers. I assume it is also for other Free Church Protestants who are not Charismatic or Pentecostal, such as Covenant, Evangelical Free and Salvation Army. Please try not to be so unfriendly to the rest of us. :sigh:
 
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SumTinWong

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Crazy Liz said:
:mad:

BT, as an Anabaptist (Mennonite/Quaker) I am highly offended by this remark.

When someone says a thread is for Baptists only, I assume you mean you don't want people like me to post a response. However, I belong in Baptist/Anabaptist. I feel this forum is becoming increasingly unfriendly to Anabaptists and Quakers.

This forum does not belong to Baptists only, but to Baptists, Anabaptists and Quakers. I assume it is also for other Free Church Protestants who are not Charismatic or Pentecostal, such as Covenant, Evangelical Free and Salvation Army. Please try not to be so unfriendly to the rest of us. :sigh:
I am sorry you are getting that feeling. I think what he was trying to say, was he wanted only the people that this forum applies to, to respond. I could be wrong and if I am and he meant only the Baptists, then I agree with you.

I think what he is trying to curb are the fights that crop up.
 
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Steve_SandbachBaptist_UK

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In the book "Believe and be Baptsied" by Victor Jack, it says that baptism is not so someone can become a Christian, but to show that they are a Christian: "Anything that may be done to us outwardly, cannot change us inwardly, so far as God is concerned."

Although the book states that baptism is "not essential to salvation" it also includes the quote from 1 Peter 3:20-22, that baptism is "not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good conscience towards God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..."

However baptism as a child cannot automatically make someone a Christian, despite what some people believe. The book says their faith is in a rite not the work of Jesus Christ (page 15). "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no-one can boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9.

Hope this is of some help,
Steve :)
 
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BT

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Street Preacher said:
IMO, The 'water' is a type for the washing of regeneration done by the word.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Another type...

Exo 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Christ is the rock, etc, etc...
You hit the third interpretation dead on!!
 
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JM

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This issue is one of Justification. Either Jesus died to save sinners or Jesus died to make salvation possible...with Baptism being needed to save a person. That would make it, Jesus plus (add what you wish) saves when the Bible clearly states, Jesus saves (notice the plus nothing). :clap:
 
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BT

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Street Preacher said:
IMO, The 'water' is a type for the washing of regeneration done by the word.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Another type...

Exo 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Christ is the rock, etc, etc...
and...

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


So in conclusion I would have to say that either option 2 (water in natural birth) or option 3 (water as a metaphor for the Word) would have to be the best interpretations of this verse. I do not believe in any way that baptism is capable of saving. It is an act of obedience which we carry out that symbolises our joining with Christ in His death and resurrection. But it can not save. If anyone thinks it can... there is one unrefutable proof in the Bible. A man, clearly saved, and unbaptized. ;)

Good discussion!
 
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Cright

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Street Preacher said:
This issue is one of Justification. Either Jesus died to save sinners or Jesus died to make salvation possible
at the risk of sounding ignorant... :doh: I must say that I don't understand this, can someone break it down for me?

Thanks,
Carina

edited to say: I understand the 3rd part of water being a metaphor... I just don't understand the difference in the 2 statements above, or how they are an issue of justification.
 
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@@Paul@@

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Cright said:
at the risk of sounding ignorant... :doh: I must say that I don't understand this, can someone break it down for me?

Thanks,
Carina
"I Think" this was a reference to water baptism not being necessary for one's salvation, Jesus (the Word) is enough...

So, with that in mind, being born of water AND Spirit is not a reference to water baptism, because the Word is all we need.
 
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FreeinChrist

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I beleive that the statment Jesus made to Nicodemas about being born of water and born of God has to do with natural birth as a child and a spiritual birth as a Christian.

One, that is why the use of the term 'born', and Nicodemas understood that it was referring to childbirth when he asked, "How can a person go back into their mother's womb?" (close to that)

Two, Jesus was talking to a Jew. One was literally born into the chosen people - Israel. Jesus is making a point to a Jew that salvation requires being born of God, not just being born in Israel (the 12 tribes). There were some Gentiles who went through a ritual to become Jews, but the majority were born into Israel, and the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement was for the sins of national Israel (the 12 tribes).
But faith was always a requirement and those that turned to idols and did not repent were lost, not to be saved at the cross.

So I believe the water does not refer to water baptism at all, but to childbirth. Baptism is the outward expression of the inward change that occurs at the "washing of regeneration" - the baptism of the Holy Spirit - that occurs when one believes and is forgiven of sin.
 
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BT

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FreeinChrist said:
I beleive that the statment Jesus made to Nicodemas about being born of water and born of God has to do with natural birth as a child and a spiritual birth as a Christian.

One, that is why the use of the term 'born', and Nicodemas understood that it was referring to childbirth when he asked, "How can a person go back into their mother's womb?" (close to that)

Two, Jesus was talking to a Jew. One was literally born into the chosen people - Israel. Jesus is making a point to a Jew that salvation requires being born of God, not just being born in Israel (the 12 tribes). There were some Gentiles who went through a ritual to become Jews, but the majority were born into Israel, and the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement was for the sins of national Israel (the 12 tribes).
But faith was always a requirement and those that turned to idols and did not repent were lost, not to be saved at the cross.

So I believe the water does not refer to water baptism at all, but to childbirth. Baptism is the outward expression of the inward change that occurs at the "washing of regeneration" - the baptism of the Holy Spirit - that occurs when one believes and is forgiven of sin.
Yes very valid points and the interpretation that I (personally) think fits best with the verse in John (as seen in the mini-paper). There are many sound arguments against the verse meaning Baptist by water. There are few against natural birth or the "washing of the word". However I still think that (at least in this case) it refers to natural birth.

**Just as a side note. I wonder if you (not FreeinChrist but whoever reads this) know that baptism was not a "New Testament" custom so to speak. The ancient Jews practiced baptism as well.. an interesting study if you ever feel like it..**

Grace,

BT
 
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theseed

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3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "
The greek here is anonthen or anothen (I have seen both spellings). It means to be born again or born from above. Which translation would be better? Both, because both are necessary to get the full impact of the Gospel. Often John plays on words like this (e.g comprehend John 1.5, explain John 1.18, living water John 4, to the end John 13.10., Spirit John 3.8).

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
Ok, we see that Nicodemus comes at night, he loves the darkness rather than the light (John 3.1, 18-21; 1.5, 18). He does not understand The Light (Christ) because darkness does not comprehend the light unless God

Note the reference tothe womb (John 3.4).

http://www.christianforums.com/t164091


5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Possible interpretations

1) The water referse to Baptism: However, Sacremental Baptist see Baptism as one act of regeneration, and not 2.

2)Water is symbolic for the Holy Spirit, just like Holy Spirit and fire. Matt. 3.11, Luke 3.16, says that we can be baptized by fire. Is this literal or symbolic?

3)water refers to the the reference to the womb, as when a woman's water breaks. However, there seems to be no references of this greek coloqualism. However, John relys on symbols in his writing and Jesus Christ was creative with his use of language, so it is not beyond reason that this he could very well mean water breaking from birth. This would parallel the the John 3.4 (womb) and John 3.6, (flesh)

6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[3] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Here again, we find that Nicodums does not understand heavenly things because he is not born from above. He is earthly or wordly. 50 + times in John we see the world to mean humanity, and it is dark and blind and does not understand the light (John 1.5,). We know that Nicodumus is not born from above, because he does not understand. Like others (Samaritan woman, Pharisees) in John's Gospel, he is blinded by his own assumptions and knowledge, (John 3.3). Only Christ is the source of heavenly knowledge (John 3.13).
 
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JM

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2) The passage deals with the natural birth (from your mom) in that you pass through water.

I just can't buy number 2. If it was water as the water breaking in the womb, born again from above seems to take place at the same time or too short or a time after birth. It just doesn't make sense to me...
 
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