For all that fear hell

Ron Gurley said:

"HELL" research...

The word "hell" from the Greek is mentioned 88 times in the Bible: ...BUT...
64 times as the Hebrew word "Sheol" in the OT, ...the lowest grave in the earth
11 times as "Hades" in the NT
1 time as "Tartarus",
12 times as "Geenna".
RESULT: inaccurate translations of similar words!

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Agreed.

Doug Melven said:

The word for hell is sheol, the grave as shown in Psalm 16:10

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Answer me this then, just for the sake of consistency. Why does your Psalm 16 understanding, in your attempt to enlighten me, not line up with Matt 10 then? Is the soul NOT IN HELL in the OT according to your theology, but then it IS IN HELL in the NT according to your theology in Matthew.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Psalm 16 was translated hell for hundreds of years until even the nominal church could no longer cover up the lie of scriptures translated incorrectly, to defend their ECT doctrine. So the nominal bible translations went from having the word hell in the KJV 54 times to 32 times in the NKJV to 12 or 13 OR 14 times in other totally accepted modern translations, by you guys. Where in hell did hell disappear to anyway in all these translations below? Don't answer, I'm being facetious, I know where it went, and it simply smells like a lot of 'grave' errors in translating IMO.

Number of times HELL is in the following translations.

Authorized King James Version 54x
New King James Version 32x
New International Version 14x
American Standard Version 13x
New American Standard Bible 13x
Revised Standard Version 12x
Young's Literal Trans 0x

Doug Melven said:

Jesus said in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from Me you workers of iniquity".
If God says He won't be in a place, who are we to say different?

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One thing I don't like about these discussions is how tossing Scripture back and forth diminishes the original intent and message of the text.

"Depart from me" doesn't have to mean God isn't in a place. It doesn't have to be a literal physical leaving. In fact....this was a parable that Jesus spoke, so it has spiritual meaning. It's not meant to be taken as a literal description of what's to come (I mean...it's goats and sheep, for one example).

I think this passage has been overshadowed by the theology of "you're going to heaven and you're not"....but it seems to me that the actual message Jesus was trying to make is what He considers as "righteous" and what He detests. All through His ministry He seems to be trying to undo the damage done by the pious religious leaders of the time. Jesus is turning the standards upside down. Those who thought they were pious, Jesus is calling "workers of iniquity" and those that thought the door of righteousness was shut on them (mostly because their economic situation disallowed them to worship the way that was considered "righteous") were, by Jesus, called righteous.

Why is so much of this passage taken literally (the "depart from me" part)....but the standard is dismissed in the interpretation (caring for others ....especially the "least of these")?

--------->Like any of the parables, this story must be read in the context of the first listeners. The shocking end of the parables of the kingdom is that those that thought they were getting into the kingdom are not going to be there, and those that were on the outside do get in. The ruling Jews thought that they were going to be in the kingdom, in fact, they were the “keepers of the kingdom of God.” Yet when Messiah came, they did not recognize him. They never really had much of a chance to since they were not caring for the poor and the needy as they ought. Jesus is very critical of the Pharisees who liked their fine things, or the people giving in the temple and mocking the widow and her mites.

On the other hand, the underclass probably did not think of themselves are serious candidates for the first to get into the kingdom. They were told repeatedly that they were the unclean, “sinners and tax-collectors.” Yet they will enter the kingdom, and those that were accepting and caring for this underclass, as Jesus was, will enter as well. Jesus demonstrated throughout his ministry this kind of grace by eating with sinners, now he is welcoming people into his kingdom who showed the same grace to other “least of these brothers.”~Matthew 25:31-46 – The Sheep and the Goats

....and remember, His Kingdom is current....not a far off hope in the future:

Doug Melven said:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,

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This is from the Greek to English Interlinear New Testament, published by World Publishing (notice the word "separated" is not there). That changes the meaning:




In Greek Orthodox theology, it's believed that ALL will be in God's presence (it's just that those that don't desire God's love will be "destroyed" or "ruined" by it).
A similar text is Acts 3:19: “Repent therefore, and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.”
IOW.....God's love will transform them.

---->The sole reason some translators have for injecting into the text the idea of being shut out or excluded from the presence of the Lord is that the Greek “apo,” like the English “from,” can sometimes mean “away from.” As Leon Morris has pointed out, “This is certainly the meaning . . . in Isa. 2:10,” where we read: “Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust from the terror of the Lord, and from the glory of his majesty.” It is also the meaning in Revelation 6:16, where the Kings of the earth and others cry out to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb . . ..” But in these texts, the verbs “to hide” and “to conceal” determine the correct translation. When we try to hide or to conceal ourselves from the presence of the Lord--an impossible task--we are indeed trying to get away from that presence. In the context of II Thessalonians 1:9, however, we find no relevant verb, such as “to hide” or “to conceal,” no relevant subject of the action, and no other grammatical device that would entitle us to translate “apo” as “away from”; and in the absence of any such grammatical device, the result of such a translation is simply grammatical nonsense.~II Thessalonians 1:8-9

Christ the Conqueror of Hell

Doug Melven said:

2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;

All that talk about this fire being purifying falls apart when God says it is "Vengeance".​

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---->American poet Henry Wadsworth Longfellow who penned these lines: “Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small; Though with patience he stands waiting, with exactness grinds he all.” 23 God will not forget our labors of love nor will he forget the perverse acts of the wicked. He is after all a loving father and will come to the aid of his hurting children. “Those responsible for troubling Christians will be repaid proportionately for the suffering they have caused.” 24

Nevertheless, as we suffer we need to remember the great sufferings of the Lord Jesus on our behalf. Our suffering is really nothing when compared to his suffering on the cross to gain our salvation (1 Pet. 4:12, 13, 16). We should strengthen our hearts with a new vision of his cross.

God will not only pay back those who trouble his people, but he will come “and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels” (1:7). God will give his people relief. He will end their pressure, tribulation and persecution. The relief or rest spoken of here is the word anesin, and it means releasing the tension, as in the case of slackening a tight bowstring. 25 Trapp says, it will be like Noah’s ark, that after much tossing to and fro finally rested on the mountains of Ararat.” 26~2 Thessalonians

Doug Melven said:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,
Jesus said in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from Me you workers of iniquity".
If God says He won't be in a place, who are we to say different?

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If you had quoted both passages I cited instead of just one you would see the truth.
Instead you chose just one passage changing what I said.

mkgal1 said:

"Depart from me" doesn't have to mean God isn't in a place. It doesn't have to be a literal physical leaving. In fact....this was a parable that Jesus spoke, so it has spiritual meaning. It's not meant to be taken as a literal description of what's to come (I mean...it's goats and sheep, for one example).

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Of course it's allegorical. But Jesus' lessons were always meant to portray a truth.
Goats = stubborn people
Sheep = those who submit.
And He is foretelling how people will be separated.
Do you really think Jesus was saying these individuals would have a conversation with Jesus?
No, this is a picture of the Great White Throne Judgment where those who have not accepted Christ as Saviour will be punished for there disobedience of not believing.

mkgal1 said:

n Greek Orthodox theology, it's believed that ALL will be in God's presence (it's just that those that don't desire God's love will be "destroyed" or "ruined" by it).
A similar text is Acts 3:19: “Repent therefore, and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.”
IOW.....God's love will transform them.

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The key here to getting the refreshing is Repenting and turning to God.
God will not force people to change who do not want to be changed.
And once you die, that is it, there are no more chances to repent.

Doug Melven said:

If you had quoted both passages I cited instead of just one you would see the truth.

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You mean I'll see YOUR point (which is distinct from the truth....in my view)?

I quoted them separately as they don't really go together (unless one is trying to proof text as you were). Also....it would have been too long of a post, anyway.

Doug Melven said:

Instead you chose just one passage changing what I said.

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I didn't change what you said....I gave a different interpretation than you did (from the original Greek text).

Doug Melven said:

Do you really think Jesus was saying these individuals would have a conversation with Jesus?

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??? I don't know what you mean by this. That's nothing like what I'd posted.

No, this is a picture of the Great White Throne Judgment where those who have not accepted Christ as Saviour will be punished for there disobedience of not believing.

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I don't believe that's supported in the text.....that comes from presumptions imposed on the text. I believe it's more about the standards of citizens of God's kingdom.

Doug Melven said:

The key here to getting the refreshing is Repenting and turning to God.
God will not force people to change who do not want to be changed.
And once you die, that is it, there are no more chances to repent.

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My point was....it's not as if God suddenly appears where He once wasn't when a person repents (as related to His omnipresence).

I absolutely agree.....God will never have to force people to change. But....I have trust that His love is powerful to affect even the hardest of hearts...and overpower the gravest of sins. His love NEVER fails.

As for the "once you die that's it"? I am not convinced that is supported by Scripture.

Doug Melven said:

No, this is a picture of the Great White Throne Judgment where those who have not accepted Christ as Saviour will be punished for there disobedience of not believing.

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That's not what Jesus said.

Putting this into context, this is called the Olivet Discourse and was one conversation Jesus had with His disciples (if I recall correctly, it was His final teaching to them) after they had just been at the temple.

----->The temple’s fate
24 Now Jesus left the temple and was going away. His disciples came to point out to him the temple buildings. 2 He responded, “Do you see all these things? I assure that no stone will be left on another. Everything will be demolished.”~Matthew 24



When the disciples asked, "when will this happen?" He answered:


----->“Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I’m the Christ.’ They will deceive many people. 6 You will hear about wars and reports of wars. Don’t be alarmed. These things must happen, but this isn’t the end yet. 7 Nations and kingdoms will fight against each other, and there will be famines and earthquakes in all sorts of places. 8 But all these things are just the beginning of the sufferings associated with the end. 9 They will arrest you, abuse you, and they will kill you. All nations will hate you on account of my name. 10 At that time many will fall away. They will betray each other and hate each other. 11 Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.12 Because disobedience will expand, the love of many will grow cold.13 But the one who endures to the end will be delivered. 14 This gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world as a testimony to all the nations. Then the end will come.~Matthew 24

The end = the end of the temple and that current Jewish age. The end of the Jewish age: the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD

"The coming of Christ in A.D.70 was a coming in judgment on the Jewish nation, indicating the end of the Jewish age and the fulfillment of a day of the Lord. Jesus really did come in judgment at this time, fulfilling his prophecy in the Olivet Discourse." (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, p. 158)

Athanasius (A.D.345)

"He was like those sent by the householder to receive the fruits of the vineyard from the husbandmen; for he exhorted all men to render a return. But Israel despised and would not render, for their will was not right, nay moreover they killed those that were sent, and not even before the Lord of the vineyard were they ashamed, but even He was slain by them. Verily, when He came and found no fruit in them, He cursed them through the fig-tree, saying, "Let there be henceforth no fruit from thee" [Matt. 21:19]; and the fig-tree was dead and fruitless, so that even the disciples wondered when it withered away.

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by the prophet: "I will take away from them the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the scent of myrrh, and the light of a lamp, and the whole land shall be destroyed" [Jer. 25:10]. For the whole service of the law has been abolished from them, and henceforth and forever they remain without a feast." (St. Athanasius, Letters [vi])

Another question the disciples had asked (in verse 3 of Matthew 24) was, "What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?”

That's not His second coming...When we read “the sign of your coming” in verse 3, it should be noted that the Greek word translated coming is parousia, commonly denoting presence. Readers with a Jewish background would have taken these words to describe a coming in judgment (as we read about in OT passages such as Isaiah 19:1). Actually, Matthew 16:28 speaks of another coming of Jesus which cannot be the second coming as we know it. “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Clearly, all “comings” of God or Jesus were not associated with the end of the world. See also Luke 19:44 for “the time of God’s coming to you,” a clear reference in context to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.~Matthew 24 – End of the World or End of an Age? | Gordon Ferguson

Not putting this into context is ignoring a lot in order to fit a specific narrative.

Hillsage said:

Answer me this then, just for the sake of consistency. Why does your Psalm 16 understanding, in your attempt to enlighten me, not line up with Matt 10 then? Is the soul NOT IN HELL in the OT according to your theology, but then it IS IN HELL in the NT according to your theology in Matthew.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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Psalm 16:11 is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:31. There the Greek word is hades.
When Jesus says "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" the Greek word is Geenna.
A totally different place.
You guys really need to get over this idea that because a word means one thing in one place it can only have that meaning everywhere else.
To be honest, sticking to that thinking makes you look a little silly.

mkgal1 said:

I don't believe that's supported in the text.....that comes from presumptions imposed on the text. I believe it's more about the standards of citizens of God's kingdom.

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Sure it is.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

How many different times do you think Jesus will be sitting on His throne judging people as to what there destiny will be?
Revelation
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Doug Melven said:

You guys really need to get over this idea that because a word means one thing in one place it can only have that meaning everywhere else.

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We're not suggesting that. I have posted several times that "hell" wasn't even a word when the Bible was written (and Hillsage posted about how translations have changed and dialed back the use of "hell" when it obviously didn't belong).

There're 3 words that have been rendered as "hell" (and that's actually the main issue)....the original words should have remained.

Doug Melven said:

Sure it is.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

How many different times do you think Jesus will be sitting on His throne judging people as to what there destiny will be?

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See my previous post. At the end of the Jewish age (He's said to be coming in His glory). And that's my point.....I don't believe we even *have* different [eventual] destinies. He is going to--in my belief--reconcile ALL things to Him (as it's written in Colossians 1:20).

Look at the headings of Matthew 24 (notice the context):

The Destruction of the Temple Foretold
24 As Jesus came out of the temple and was going away, his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 Then he asked them, ‘You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down.’

Signs of the End of the Age
3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, ‘Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?’ 4 Jesus answered them, ‘Beware that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, “I am the Messiah!” and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: 8 all this is but the beginning of the birth pangs.

Persecutions Foretold
9 ‘Then they will hand you over to be tortured and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name. 10 Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But anyone who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come.

The Desolating Sacrilege
15 ‘So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; 17 someone on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; 18 someone in the field must not turn back to get a coat. 19 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, “Look! Here is the Messiah!” or “There he is!”—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahsand false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, “Look! He is in the wilderness”, do not go out. If they say, “Look! He is in the inner rooms”, do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 ‘Immediately after the suffering of those days

the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see “the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven” with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

........then Jesus goes into the importance of "watchfulness". That's not end of the world instruction. It's for the Jews in Jerusalem [that understood Jesus' message] to be aware and to watch for signs that allow them time to flee:

----->So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains~Matthew 24:15

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24 - New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised


----->Remember that the Bible had no original chapter divisions. Since verse 44 is a culminating statement, this section may go better with chapter 25. Three views of kingdoms are given in Matthew 24 and 25: the kingdom destroyed (Jewish) – chapter 24; the kingdom remaining on earth (Church) – 25:1-30; and the kingdom eternal (exalted at God’s throne) – 25:31-46.~Matthew 24 – End of the World or End of an Age? | Gordon Ferguson

When reading Matthew 24 and 25 to be implying end of the world....there is so much missed about the judgement of Jerusalem as a nation (and God's nature):


40 YEARS OF WARNINGS


Many wonder why God waited 40 years after Jesus' death and resurrection to fulfill his prophecy about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. First, the number 40 in the Bible is symbolic of trial, testing, and punishment. Second, waiting 40 years shows God's patience in allowing the Jews time to repent and turn back to him with proper behavior and worship so that he could bless them instead of punishing them.

Although the Temple and city were not destroyed until 70 A.D., the supernatural events that occurred on the day the Messiah was murdered were only a few of the many warnings given to the Jewish people prior to the destruction of their beloved Temple and city. On the Day of Atonement in 30 A.D. a series of two consecutive warnings that were repeated on this day for another 39 years began.~The Temple Destroyed, 70 A.D.

In reference to the destruction of Jerusalem:

--->It is said that at the fall of Jerusalem, the last surviving Jews of the city fled to the temple because it was the strongest and most secure building remaining. Roman soldiers surrounded it, and one drunken soldier started a fire that soon engulfed the whole building. Ornate gold detail work in the roof melted down in the cracks between the stone walls of the temple. To retrieve the gold, the Roman commander ordered that the temple be dismantled stone by stone. The destruction was so complete that today researchers have some difficulty learning exactly where the temple was.~Enduring Word Bible Commentary Mark Chapter 13

Those that listened to Jesus' message fled to the mountains....not relying on their temple to "save" them.

mkgal1 said:

~Enduring Word Bible Commentary Mark Chapter 13

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Does the position of that commentary lie in a full or part preterist point of view?

Shempster said:

Does the position of that commentary lie in a full or part preterist point of view?

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Oh... I don't know. Those are new terms for me and I still don't have enough understanding to know.

Doug Melven said:

Psalm 16:11 is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:31. There the Greek word is hades.

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Correct HADES is right. So where did HELL come from? Hades is, always was 'the grave', period. Even today in New England at 'planting' time they say; "Well it's time to HELL the potatoes." Stupid definition, but correct application....dig a hole, throw it in, cover it up.

When Jesus says "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" the Greek word is Geenna.

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That's the problem with you guys, Jesus never said HELL, don't you get it? Jesus did say Gehenna, but what was Gehenna? It certainly wasn't the HELL you guys believe in.

You guys really need to get over this idea that because a word means one thing in one place it can only have that meaning everywhere else.
To be honest, sticking to that thinking makes you look a little silly.

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I'd rather look silly than 'look the fool', when the only thing determining whether your side interprets 'a single word' as 'grave' or 'hell' is based solely upon whether or not it's talking about the nominal 'still sins like hell' church OR if it is talking about the majority of God's creation. A creation which you guys think DESERVE eternal torture.

It's you guys who want to change the meaning of a word in the Hebrew or Greek. We're all for gehenna, hades, sheol meaning just exactly what those 'one words' we're defined as ORIGINALLY being. 'Garbage dump' and 'grave'.

mkgal1 said:

------> There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear expects punishment. The person who is afraid has not been made perfect in love.~1st John 4:18

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How are people who die in their sins "made perfect in love?" The Dante's inferno shtick is a favorite cop-out for the "hell no" crowd. The fact is
according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, centuries before Dante, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
When Jesus taught about,
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

Doug Melven said:

Sure it is.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

How many different times do you think Jesus will be sitting on His throne judging people as to what there destiny will be?

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Take a look to see what Matthew had written about "the coming of the Son of Man":

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” (NIV)~Matthew 16:27-28




When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.~Matthew 10:23



4 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.~Matthew 24:34


And responding to the high priest, Jesus said, “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”~Matthew 26:63-64


~The Son of Man Coming in his Kingdom

Also:
------->by Babu G. Ranganathan

Not all prophecy in Scripture has been fulfilled yet but the second coming of Jesus Christ was totally fulfilled in the first century. The second coming of Christ had to do with the destruction of the Jewish Age and the establishment of Christ's Kingdom.

Jesus said that some of His disciples will not finish preaching through all the cities of Israel before He comes back (Matthew 10:23). Jesus said that some who were living during His time would not die before they see the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) coming in His Kingdom (Matthew 16:28). Jesus said that "this generation" will not pass away before all these things concerning His second coming are fulfilled (Matthew 24:34). He was talking to the people of that time and the generation of that time. He was saying that they (not us) would be witnesses to these things happening.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140612114310-117953348-second-coming-of-christ-misunderstood

mkgal1 said:

Begin quote

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This is from the Greek to English Interlinear New Testament, published by World Publishing (notice the word "separated" is not there). That changes the meaning:




In Greek Orthodox theology, it's believed that ALL will be in God's presence (it's just that those that don't desire God's love will be "destroyed" or "ruined" by it).
A similar text is Acts 3:19: “Repent therefore, and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.”
IOW.....God's love will transform them.
---->The sole reason some translators have for injecting into the text the idea of being shut out or excluded from the presence of the Lord is that the Greek “apo,” like the English “from,” can sometimes mean “away from.” As Leon Morris has pointed out, “This is certainly the meaning . . . in Isa. 2:10,” where we read: “Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust from the terror of the Lord, and from the glory of his majesty.” It is also the meaning in Revelation 6:16, where the Kings of the earth and others cry out to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb . . ..” But in these texts, the verbs “to hide” and “to conceal” determine the correct translation. When we try to hide or to conceal ourselves from the presence of the Lord--an impossible task--we are indeed trying to get away from that presence. In the context of II Thessalonians 1:9, however, we find no relevant verb, such as “to hide” or “to conceal,” no relevant subject of the action, and no other grammatical device that would entitle us to translate “apo” as “away from”; and in the absence of any such grammatical device, the result of such a translation is simply grammatical nonsense.~II Thessalonians 1:8-9
hrist the Conqueror of Hell

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First the green font face makes reading very difficult.Who is the author of the quote and what are his/her qualifications in Greek? How can this person categorically determine "The sole reason some translators have for injecting" anything into any text? What rule of Greek grammar supports the conclusion of this author? There is a word in the quote which supports the traditional translation. προσωπου/presence. ολεθρον αιωνιον απο προσωπου του κυριου/destruction eternal from [the] presence of the Lord."

Shempster said:

Does the position of that commentary lie in a full or part preterist point of view?

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This may help you decide (I'm still not clear on the distinction between the two):

------->Those who interpret the time elements most literally (e.g. “I am coming soon, “this generation,” etc.) are known as preterists. Preterists and partial preterists believe most or even all NT prophecies were fulfilled long ago in the first century. According to preterists, the time elements are clear and require us to hold to a past fulfillment. In particular, events that occurred in AD 70 are seen as the fulfillment of many NT prophecies. In AD 70 the Romans conquered and destroyed Jerusalem and demolished the temple. Losing their capital city and their temple was a world-shattering event for first-century Jews.

Since Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple in Matthew 24, when it happened in AD 70, he was proven to be a true prophet and he received his heavenly vindication. The “coming of the Son of Man” therefore, is not a downward coming to earth, rather an upward coming to God the Father for glory and vindication. This interpretation fits with Daniel 7:13–14 where Daniel sees:

“one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed” (NIV).~The Son of Man Coming in his Kingdom


Another author referring to that possibility:
Another, more likely, possibility is that the judgment Jesus is referring to in verse 27 is the judgment referred to in Daniel 7:9–10, a heavenly judgment of the “beasts/nations” that is directly related to Jesus’ receiving of the kingdom of God from the Father, an event that occurs in connection with his first advent.vii~Some Standing Here Will Not Taste Death — The Unfolding of Biblical Eschatology