For all that fear hell

ToBeLoved · Feb 6, 2018

KrisPablos said:
I know it is written that God punishes but as I found God, Jesus Christ i can see that He can't do that. The one who punishes is the devil. It's when you feel something that is sweet, pleasurable and you commit your soul to that something and start to go on that road but realize, later, on your surprise, that you are infront of a dead end . The devil or, in psychological terms can be called "The sadist within", is the one who enjoys to see you suffer.
So when you go on that road God, Jesus Christ won't punish you but the devil.

The good news is that God, Jesus Christ is much, much stronger than the devil. It can't even be compared. So following His path will make the devil and all of his efforts pointless and the devil will fear you.

Thank you God for letting me see this and for letting me know how great you are. I love you more than anything in the world.

I don't know of any verses that show that God punishes here on earth under the New Covenant.

I believe that as a natural by product of our own sins and sinful nature, that negative things happen, but I don't perscribe those things to God's punishment to us or people.

Now, under the Old Covenant it was a different story because they were under the Law.

As far as 'committing our soul to something', I'm not sure we can commit our soul to something in the way you are thinking.

What the Bible does say is that each human being has a master and that master is either God or satan, and as a default because of sin we all start out without God as our master. Jesus paid the price for us and we have changed ownership, been bought with Christ's blood and sacrifice.

In the Old Testament the Israelite's were punished by God, but they lived under the Old Covenant which demanded obedience to all God's

ToBeLoved · Feb 6, 2018

Hell need not even be on a Christians mind because we are not going there.

Hillsage · Feb 6, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Right....it's something that there's no church doctrine related to (since there's division and Scripture is too ambiguous to clear up the division) and I think that the threat of ECT was especially helpful for the RC church to maintain control over the people (and to bring in $$, to be honest). What I found interesting was, universal reconciliation or the belief that we can "dare hope all men will be saved" was never overall condemned by the RC (that I know of). It was mostly the Franciscan order that held to the belief of Universal Reconciliation.

How cool, my RC baptized middle name is Francis...after St. Francis of course. So enjoyed the Brother Son Sister Moon movie about him when I was saved in the 70's.

----->Just over twenty five years ago, Ignatius Press published the first English translation of a book by the Swiss theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar, a man esteemed by St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Titled Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved? With a Short Discourse on Hell, the book combined two small works originally published in German in 1986 and 1987. The book remains one of the most discussed theology books of the twentieth century as well as one of the most controversial. ~Remembering Hans Urs von Balthasar's Important Book | Word on Fire

----->The new, post-Vatican II Catechism of the Catholic Church also gives us to hope that all will be saved.

I'll have to get a copy, sounds interesting.

1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: ‘Lord, let me never be parted from you.’ If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God ‘desires all men to be saved’ (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him ‘all things are possible’ (Mt 19:26).

1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved.’~Does the Catholic Church oppose universalism?

I don't know. I read both of those but can still see a crack left open in the door that, if nailed down, they could easily still admit belief in eternal hell. I'll have to check out your URL.

thesunisout · Feb 6, 2018

Hillsage said:
Agreed. Now go back to my first post and refute my position which I based upon quoting a translation you do agree with.

For me, anyone who believes the God I serve is worse than Hitler with an eternal Auschwitz for the overwhelming majority of His beloved creation, qualifies one for the 'nominal' church. And I am sure you've already proven, you qualify IMO.

I actually refuted both your Jeremiah verses then deleted them. I'm not following your bunny trails to distraction. You refute my application of 8:8.. There isn't a false doctrine out there that doesn't have an "It is written"...to justify their theology. You just don't know 'that' includes your theology. What translations do you even use regularly, to study from?

I'm sorry you feel I am part of the "nominal" church. I am also sorry that you don't believe Jesus Christ, who preached that it would be better to put out your eye than go into hellfire with two eyes. If you won't believe Him, you won't listen to me.

thesunisout · Feb 6, 2018

mkgal1 said:
If this were the true message God was desiring for us to understand.....then can you show me one recorded speech from the Bible of Jesus' warning people of an eternal damnation of torment

Mark 9:42-28

If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where

“ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'"

mkgal1 said:
Instead....what I see in Scripture is the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus is instructing us to forgive and love our enemies. It seems like that's a hypocritical God that would instruct His followers to love and forgive their enemies while He torments His enemies for eternity. I see in the Scripture that Jesus wasn't fond of hypocrites....that would emphasize Him even more to be a hypocrite Himself. I'm also not fond of hypocrites....so I couldn't follow a God like that.

God instructs us not to judge, because He is the judge:

Romans 12:19-20

Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head

Our forgiving does not preclude ultimate justice. We defer judgment to its rightful place, which is in Gods hands. He will repay. God in His mercy provides atonement but all who reject the Messiah will be judged:

Revelation 20:15

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

thesunisout · Feb 6, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I think you're missing that you just may be the one that's picking and choosing (and following the invention of a Dante's Inferno afterlife).

Metaphors don't depict a literal reality....if so, then God would literally be a mother hen....a mama bear...a rock that gives birth...a nursing mother....etc.

Christians have believed in a literal hell long before Dantes inferno was written. Read the writings of the early church fathers:

Early Church Fathers versus Universalism

mkgal1 said:
Not quite in those words. More that He came to demonstrate His love for us while we were still sinners, just like the biblical text says in Romans 5. His love is unfailing.....all won't reject Him forever. Love wins out in the end. I believe in a victorious God.....not one that died to save a small percentage of His own creation, especially when it's recorded that He desires that NONE should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance (2nd Peter 3:9). That also seems to me to be a promise....

mkgal1 said:
"The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance."~2nd Peter 3:9

It doesn't seem to me like much of a victorious and omnipotent God that breaks His promise and doesn't fulfill His desire. But that's just my opinion.

We know it is not a promise because some do perish:

Matthew 25:46

Jesus said, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 3:28-29

Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin

The amount of people who perish does not diminish Gods glory because His judgment is righteous. The idea that there is a second chance after death can condemn someone to hell. You will have the blood of anyone you teach that to on your hands.

mkgal1 · Feb 6, 2018

thesunisout said:
I am also sorry that you don't believe Jesus Christ, who preached that it would be better to put out your eye than go into hellfire with two eyes

A better translation:

"And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life one-eyed, than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire."~Matthew 18:9

That's an actual place that Jesus' audience would be very familiar with (and IIRC.....He may have even been standing within the view of Gehenna when He spoke those words.

------>As we trace the history of the locality as it occurs in the Old Testament, we learn that it should never have been translated by the word Hell. It is a proper name of a well-known locality, and ought to have stood Gehenna, as it does in the French Bible, in Newcome’s and Wakefield’s translation, in the Improved Version, Emphatic Diaglott, etc. Babylon might have been translated Hell with as much propriety as Gehenna.
It is fully described in numerous passages in the Old Testament, and is exactly located on earth.~Hell (Gehenna) in the Bible | Mercy Upon All

thesunisout said:
Mark 9:42-28

If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where

“ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'"

Same thing.....Gehenna.

We know it is not a promise because some do perish:

Click to expand...

Matthew 25:46

Jesus said, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 3:28-29

Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin

The amount of people who perish does not diminish Gods glory because His judgment is righteous. The idea that there is a second chance after death can condemn someone to hell. You will have the blood of anyone you teach that to on your hands.

And you know that some do perish....how, exactly? That's something we can't *know*.

What do you do with all the other verses that speak of His promise and His desire that ALL will be saved and come to repentance?

OTOH....those of us that hope in a God that's victorious and omnipotent believe that those verses have been mistranslated and the use of "everlasting" is incorrect.

I am secure in knowing that my understanding of God draws more to Him than a vengeful torturing god (and that those that have been driven away will be shown HIs genuine love instead of them relying on heresay and being judged by their response to that).

thesunisout · Feb 6, 2018

mkgal1 said:
A better translation:

"And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life one-eyed, than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire."~Matthew 18:9

That's an actual place that Jesus' audience would be very familiar with (and IIRC.....He may have even been standing within the view of Gehenna when He spoke those words.

------>As we trace the history of the locality as it occurs in the Old Testament, we learn that it should never have been translated by the word Hell. It is a proper name of a well-known locality, and ought to have stood Gehenna, as it does in the French Bible, in Newcome’s and Wakefield’s translation, in the Improved Version, Emphatic Diaglott, etc. Babylon might have been translated Hell with as much propriety as Gehenna.
It is fully described in numerous passages in the Old Testament, and is exactly located on earth.~Hell (Gehenna) in the Bible | Mercy Upon All

Same thing.....Gehenna

So you think Jesus is warning people not to sin so their bodies won't be tossed in a literal garbage dump? Why do you think you can dismiss the serious warnings of scripture like this? Don't you see the need to explain why Jesus is warning people and what the warning entails? To say this is all Jesus was saying makes absolutely no sense.

Obviously, He is using Gehenna as an illustration of hell. Gehenna, as a burning garbage dump whose fire never went out typifies the eternal spiritual garbage dump known as the lake of fire.

mkgal1 said:
And you know that some do perish....how, exactly? That's something we can't *know*.

We know it because the Lord said it would happen:

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish

John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

mkgal1 said:
What do you do with all the other verses that speak of His promise and His desire that ALL will be saved and come to repentance?

If you take a few verses in isolation without the whole counsel of God, you could prove virtually any doctrine you wanted. I study those verses in context with other verses like the ones I've been sharing which show they are not proof of universalism.

mkgal1 said:
OTOH....those of us that hope in a God that's victorious and omnipotent believe that those verses have been mistranslated and the use of "everlasting" is incorrect.

I am secure in knowing that my understanding of God draws more to Him than a vengeful torturing god (and that those that have been driven away will be shown HIs genuine love instead of them relying on heresay and being judged by their response to that).

Jesus is already victorious over sin and death. He has already been exalted to the highest place and His is the name above every other name. The amount of people who are saved can not and will not diminish His victory; the multiple billions who have and will be saved will only bring God more glory. God is not a vengeful, torturing God; He is a righteous and holy God whose just wrath against sin will be poured out on those who reject His Son.

Hillsage · Feb 6, 2018

thesunisout said:
I'm sorry you feel I am part of the "nominal" church. I am also sorry that you don't believe Jesus Christ, who preached that it would be better to put out your eye than go into hellfire with two eyes. If you won't believe Him, you won't listen to me.

It sounds to me like you're sorry because I don't believe YOU, and because you haven't won. You thinking I'm wrong and me thinking you're wrong is just even Steven thinking. Getting your feelings hurt because I think your view is nominal is simply another issue for you IMO. I'm not a chocolate soldier, and I don't melt when called a whole lot worse things by people who believe like you do.

FYI I believed like you long ago. Then I got presented with a doctrinal view which made God so much bigger, better and smarter than the nominal church POV. Please don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry you believe God was too dumb to come up with a salvation plan that didn't have the devil win.

thesunisout · Feb 6, 2018

Hillsage said:
No, you're sorry I don't believe YOU and because you haven't won. You thinking I'm wrong and me thinking you're wrong is just even Steven thinking. Getting your feelings hurt because I think your view is nominal is simply another issue for you IMO. I'm not a chocolate soldier, and I don't melt when called a whole lot worse things by people who believe like you do.

FYI I believed like you long ago. Then I actually got presented with a doctrinal view which made God so much bigger, better and smarter than the nominal church POV. Please don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry you believe God was too dumb to come up with a salvation plan that didn't have the devil win.

My feelings aren't hurt, friend. You've said it yourself: "because you haven't won" and that is the spirit in which you are conducting the conversation. I'm not interested in being a part of that

Hillsage · Feb 6, 2018

thesunisout said:
My feelings aren't hurt, friend. You've said it yourself: "because you haven't won" and that is the spirit in which you are conducting the conversation. I'm not interested in being a part of that

I studied this for 10 years just hoping it was true. Since then I've totally believed it is. And I'm not here to win. I'm here presenting a POV you aren't doing so hot on refuting, so the wining or losing tag still sticks on you and not me.....friend.

thesunisout · Feb 6, 2018

Hillsage said:
I studied this for 10 years just hoping it was true. Since then I've totally believed it is. And I'm not here to win. I'm here presenting a POV you aren't doing so hot on refuting, so the wining or losing tag still sticks on you and not me.....friend.

Thank you for being honest; you spent 10 years trying to convince yourself of something that isn't true, and you eventually came to believe it. That's what happens when we reject the truth; we believe a lie.

KrisPablos · Feb 6, 2018

If you see a young or an old person and you try to explain or preach the world of God, Jesus Christ to them and you say "He will send you to hell if you don't fallow him" - You are doing a sin. And working for the devil.

SolomonVII · Feb 6, 2018

KrisPablos said:
I know it is written that God punishes but as I found God, Jesus Christ i can see that He can't do that. The one who punishes is the devil. It's when you feel something that is sweet, pleasurable and you commit your soul to that something and start to go on that road but realize, later, on your surprise, that you are infront of a dead end . The devil or, in psychological terms can be called "The sadist within", is the one who enjoys to see you suffer.
So when you go on that road God, Jesus Christ won't punish you but the devil.

The good news is that God, Jesus Christ is much, much stronger than the devil. It can't even be compared. So following His path will make the devil and all of his efforts pointless and the devil will fear you.

Thank you God for letting me see this and for letting me know how great you are. I love you more than anything in the world.

I cannot say for sure if heaven exists, but I think we all understand that hell is real enough. Auschwitz, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, tortured bodies of dead Syrian teenagers shipped back to their parents, Saddam's soldiers raping a man's wife in front of him, or torturing his children by chopping off their fingers; for sure, eternal or not, anything and everything that has been imagined to be taking place in hell in the afterlife, takes place right here and now on earth.
We are all creators made in the image of God, with free will and with influence. Our lives directly touch circa a thousand people in a lifetime, and each of them a thousand That is our influence.
With every step, every breath, every move, every word, and maybe even every thought, we create the world around us through our influence. With every sin of commission or omission we bring the world one step further into hell, and with every step we take in the footprints left to us by Christ we move in the opposite direction.
Hell is real enough, and it is of our own creation. People who have learned to hate their lives, and the suffering that they endure, which is real enough, actively pursue making the lives of others a living hell, out of malice and resentment and revenge.
Those who follow Christ, take up their cross, accept that suffering is a part of life, and try to make their lives, and the lives of those around them just a little bit better in spite of all the suffering they endure, because of it in fact.
The difference between heaven and hell is not suffering, but in being able to accept that suffering as part of live, and making something out of ourselves, rather than lashing out in hopeless resentment.

KrisPablos · Feb 6, 2018

SolomonVII said:
I cannot say for sure if heaven exists, but I think we all understand that hell is real enough. Auschwitz, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, tortured bodies of dead Syrian teenagers shipped back to their parents, Saddam's soldiers raping a man's wife in front of him, or torturing his children by chopping off their fingers; for sure, eternal or not, anything and everything that has been imagined to be taking place in hell in the afterlife, takes place right here and now on earth.
We are all creators made in the image of God, with free will and with influence. Our lives directly touch circa a thousand people in a lifetime, and each of them a thousand That is our influence.
With every step, every breath, every move, every word, and maybe even every thought, we create the world around us through our influence. With every sin of commission or omission we bring the world one step further into hell, and with every step we take in the footprints left to us by Christ we move in the opposite direction.
Hell is real enough, and it is of our own creation. People who have learned to hate their lives, and the suffering that they endure, which is real enough, actively pursue making the lives of others a living hell, out of malice and resentment and revenge.
Those who follow Christ, take up their cross, accept that suffering is a part of life, and try to make their lives, and the lives of those around them just a little bit better in spite of all the suffering they endure, because of it in fact.
The difference between heaven and hell is not suffering, but in being able to accept that suffering as part of live, and making something out of ourselves, rather than lashing out in hopeless resentment.

I agree, in fact I think this is death and hell and the only way out of it is through the word of God, Jesus Christ. Or life.

Hillsage · Feb 6, 2018

thesunisout said:
Thank you for being honest; you spent 10 years trying to convince yourself of something that isn't true, and you eventually came to believe it. That's what happens when we reject the truth; we believe a lie.

No, I spent 10 years fighting through all the questions I had as to how the nominal church could be wrong. Questions you have never even asked about, let alone 'studied to show yourself approved of God.' Man's approval though, oh you got that for sure.....fully indoctrinated....And that's how you believe a lie. And every post you keep countering with, just continues to prove what I'm saying.

So are you a Roman Catholic, or at least a Lutheran? If not then what church do you belong to who says the churches of 1500 years prior are wrong. Don't you see your own dichotomy. If not then might need to let this be the last word.

mkgal1 · Feb 7, 2018

thesunisout said:
Christians have believed in a literal hell long before Dantes inferno was written. Read the writings of the early church fathers:

Early Church Fathers versus Universalism

They didn't get those ideas from Jesus....most of these ideas came from Greek mythology and the writings of Homer and Plato (look up the "hellenization of Christianity" to see what I mean). I believe Justin Martyr is one of the main influencers in bringing the Hellenic culture into Christianity ("Hellenic" = Greek ).

mkgal1 · Feb 7, 2018

↑

The Bible said:
"The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance."~2nd Peter 3:9

TheSunisOut said:
We know it is not a promise because some do perish:

....and in God's economy, it seems that "perishing" is not a final outcome....resurrection is.

mkgal1 · Feb 7, 2018

thesunisout said:
Mark 9:42-28

If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'"

It would be helpful if you could try to put aside your preconceived ideas about these passages for a bit. Think about these metaphors using the millstone metaphor first. I read the contrasts to be about life and death (but in a spiritual sense...not literal). See how these verses are using the phrase, "enter life"? How can that be literal.....they are already living? "Enter life" is entering the Kingdom of God (which isn't a place but a way of living--Mark 1:14).

It could very well be that your beliefs are being overshadowed by all the imagery you've heard about hell referring to afterlife....but try to imagine that you've never heard all that (because 1st century Jews never had)....and consider that Jesus was just speaking of the literal place, Gehenna (which was a metaphor for "evil" as it was known to be the place of gruesome idol worship).

The thesis of Jesus' speech is in the beginning of Mark 9, which says:

Mark 9 said:
Jesus continued, “I assure you that some standing here won’t die before they see God’s kingdom arrive in power.”

....which suggests to me the emphasis shouldn't be on the evil side of things....but instead....the encouragement to enter into God's kingdom.

I think this quote from Fr Richard Rohr sums it up well:

Fr Richard Rohr said:
Hell is not what we’ve pictured it to be but simply a much-needed metaphor (found in most religions) for the ultimate tragedy of not choosing life and love.~https://cac.org/responding-vengeful-scriptures-2015-05-15/

And about Gehenna?

Linked Article said:
https://harvestherald.wordpress.com/2010/04/18/how-a-valley-in-jerusalem-got-turned-into-hell/~
We all know what the Bible teaches about hell. Or Do we?

Most Christians believe that hell is the place where the unsaved will be tormented in flames for all eternity. They firmly believe that this teaching comes straight from the Bible and that the greatest teacher on this subject is Jesus himself. After all, it was Jesus who said:

“But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. ” (Matthew 5:22, KJV)

But what exactly is this ‘hell’ Jesus spoke of? Are you sure you know?

The Greek word which has here been translated ‘hell’ is gehenna. But when I study this Greek word, this is what I find:

1) The word literally means ‘The Valley of the Sons of Hinnom“. This is a literal place in Jerusalem referenced many times in the Old Testament – you can go visit it today if you’d like.

A red flag immediately goes up. How did the name of a valley in Jerusalem which exists to this day get translated into an English word which stands for a fiery place of eternal punishment in some other place or dimension. I don’t get it, so I keep studying and find out that:

2) According to the Old Testament evil Jewish Kings made this valley a place for idolatry and sacrificed children there to false gods. Later, king Josiah abolished these practices and made the place into the city garbage dump. Fires continually burned there to consume the refuse. This still doesn’t tell me how gehenna turned into ‘hell’ in our English Bibles. So, I keep going…

3) The prophet Jeremiah pronounced curses over the valley and prophesied that because the Jewish nation had abandoned God, he would make the whole nation as the Valley of Hinnom (a burning trash heap). There would be a great slaughter and they would bury their corpses there until there would be no place left to bury (See Jeremiah 19). Surely a somber warning of a horrible judgment which would befall the Jewish nation, but still no information on how this relates to ‘hell’ as we know it. I search in vain through the Old Testament for any information on this place which connects it with a future place of eternal torment.

Now, every student of the Bible should stop right here and consider the significance of this. Jesus never spoke the word ‘hell’. No, he spoke of ‘Gehenna’. Gehenna was a physical place in Jerusalem; a place to which he could point – the audience to which he spoke was familiar with this place. The history of this valley was well known from the Hebrew scriptures. But NONE of that had anything to do with the concept of ‘hell’ as a place of future punishment as we know it.

Consider then that for ‘Gehenna’ your English Bible has inserted an INTERPRETATION, nota TRANSLATION. A proper translation of gehenna would be ‘Valley of Hinnom‘, but certainly not ‘hell’. Knowing this information, what conclusions would you draw about ‘Gehenna’ by using the Bible alone? Think about it. What if the translators of the Bible had inserted ‘valley of hinnom’ (a literal translation) every time this word appears. Could you find a place of eternal torment connected to this place? No, you would be forced to conclude that Jesus was pronouncing upon those who rejected him and his message the well-known curses and judgments associated with this place as described in the Old Testament prophets. What other conclusion could you possibly come to? Scripturally, nothing in the Old Testament concerning the ‘valley of the sons of Hinnom’has anything to do with hell as we’ve been taught to understand it.

Much like what SolomonVII was saying.....Jesus was talking about the present time. When He juxtaposed "God's Kingdom" against "Gehenna"......He was not speaking of their life AFTER death. He was encouraging them to change their ways mostly in the areas of justice, money, and inclusion.....keeping in mind that what they do to the "least of these" they do to God.

---->We might do well to follow the Eastern Orthodox Saint Silouan’s advice [2]:

“I remember a conversation between [Staretz Silouan] and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

“Obviously upset, the Staretz said, ‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise, and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire—would you feel happy?’

“‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

“The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:

“‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all.’”

~[2] Bishop Kallistos Ware, The Inner Kingdom, Vol. 1 of the Collected Works (St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press: 2004), 48.

mkgal1 · Feb 7, 2018

TheSunisOut said:
God is not a vengeful, torturing God; He is a righteous and holy God whose just wrath against sin will be poured out on those who reject His Son.

Are you familiar with cognitive dissonance? If not.....this is a good example to get you started in understanding it.

Instead....what I believe is that His wrath will be towards evil....and He will eradicate sin by restoring people.

The Bible said:
I laid a foundation like a wise master builder according to God’s grace that was given to me, but someone else is building on top of it. Each person needs to pay attention to the way they build on it. 11 No one can lay any other foundation besides the one that is already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 So, whether someone builds on top of the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or hay, 13 each one’s work will be clearly shown. The day will make it clear, because it will be revealed with fire—the fire will test the quality of each one’s work. 14 If anyone’s work survives, they’ll get a reward. 15 But if anyone’s work goes up in flames, they’ll lose it. However, they themselves will be saved as if they had gone through a fire.~1 Corinthians 3:10-15

For all that fear hell

Well-Known Member

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One 4 Him & Him 4 all

growing in grace

growing in grace

growing in grace

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

growing in grace

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

growing in grace

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

growing in grace

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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