For all that fear hell

This is Romans 5:18....and it's perfectly harmonious with the Universal Reconciliation's interpretation of Rev 21:


....but I think I need an explanation from the ECT/Annihilationist crowds as to how these verses fit together harmoniously.

mkgal1 said:

This is Romans 5:18....and it's perfectly harmonious with the Universal Reconciliation's interpretation of Rev 21:

So now the righteous requirements necessary for life are met for everyone through the righteous act of one person, just as judgment fell on everyone through the failure of one person​

....but I think I need an explanation from the ECT/Annihilationist crowds as to how these verses fit together harmoniously.

​

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Simple answer: belief is required.
Longer answer: Each individual must accept what Jesus has done.

Universal Reconciliation and Universal Salvation are not the same thing.
UR is biblical, US is wrong.
God will not force someone to accept Him.

mkgal1 said:

esus was speaking of Ghenna......and who were the "believers" at that point in history? Who were the "unbelievers" that were chanting to have Jesus killed? Who could have been classified as the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and liars of Jesus' time? (Hint: who missed their Messiah at His the time their visitation?).

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This is a new interpretation. I have never heard this one before.
It looks like you are saying that only those unbelievers in Jesus' time will be in the Lake of Fire.

Doug Melven said:

This is a new interpretation. I have never heard this one before.
It looks like you are saying that only those unbelievers in Jesus' time will be in the Lake of Fire.

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Not exactly what I'm saying (because I believe you're still not understanding Gehenna to be a literal place and are thinking of something else).

You have to strip away what you're imposing onto this Scripture and put it completely into context. The context being that Jesus was speaking predominantly to that point in time....to the Jews....and their impending doom of the destruction of the Temple.

Who believed Him....who was against Him...who died (those that didn't flee to the mountains)....who were the murderers....the liars....the idolaters that believed the Temple would "save" them?

Do you know about how many were killed during the siege of Jerusalem? I've read estimates of over a million people. Do you think they were buried in nice individual graves with marble markers......or tossed in to the valley in mass (and let the fire and worms take care of the corpses)? The Jewish culture understood the purity [lack of, rather] of dead bodies a bit differently than we do (remember how important it was to get the dead outside the city gates?).

Jesus was reminding the Jews (I believe) of this verse from the Torah in His words....relating back...and pointing out that He is the promised Messiah:

Doug Melven said:

Simple answer: belief is required.
Longer answer: Each individual must accept what Jesus has done.

Universal Reconciliation and Universal Salvation are not the same thing.
UR is biblical, US is wrong.
God will not force someone to accept Him.

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It's not that simple. You are ignoring the "everyone" and "one person" part. If the "everyone" applies in one part of the equation (the sin part).....then, in order to be equal, it has to also apply to the salvation side as well. Remember the verse we brought up earlier....how humanity is all penned in together:


You aren't addressing the passage by merely promoting the idea that "UR is wrong".

I agree with you that God will not force anyone to accept Him. He won't have to. His love is a powerful thing...(and we aren't at the "end of the story" yet).

Doug Melven said:

When was this ever true? Show Scripture.

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You'd asked this about "priests" being a father--> eldest son thing. I haven't studied ancient Jewish culture....but I do know that not all the traditions of the ancient Jewish culture are written in the Old Testament. What we do have, though, are a few verses that show Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob performing "priestly" rituals to God.

What I don't see, though, is whether these rituals were just based on what they knew (from all the cultures around them) or just what seemed natural for them to do (as just about every culture has the offering of sacrifices to appease and thank their god).....or if God actually instructed them specifically (which I don't buy). The binding of Issac was surprising to the ancient Jewish culture in a different way than it is to us. It wasn't surprising that Abraham was offering his only son as a sacrifice (that was actually done at that point in history).....the surprise was that God stopped it.

Maybe God knows we need to be eased out of our cultural hang ups?

Another passage that's difficult to reconcile without the Universal Reconcilation framework is 2nd Chronicles 28, where it's written:

Ahaz became king at the age of twenty, and he ruled in Jerusalem for sixteen years. He did not follow the good example of his ancestor King David; instead, he did what was not pleasing to the Lord 2 and followed the example of the kings of Israel. He had metal images of Baal made, 3 burned incense in Hinnom Valley, and even sacrificed his own sons as burnt offerings to idols, imitating the disgusting practice of the people whom the Lord had driven out of the land as the Israelites advanced. 4 At the pagan places of worship, on the hills, and under every shady tree Ahaz offered sacrifices and burned incense.

Why would Jesus, as an exact representation of the Father, make reference to His Father doing just what is described here as a "disgusting practice" by the pagans that worshiped Baal? Does it make sense to the ECT crowd that the True God does just what the idolaters did (when it's written to "not be a good example" as King David and "not pleasing to the Lord"?). Again....that view paints God as quite a hypocrite.

mkgal1 said:

t's not that simple. You are ignoring the "everyone" and "one person" part. If the "everyone" applies in one part of the equation (the sin part).....then, in order to be equal, it has to also apply to the salvation side as well. Remember the verse we brought up earlier....how humanity is all penned in together:

For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].~Romans 11:32
You aren't addressing the passage by merely promoting the idea that "UR is wrong".

I agree with you that God will not force anyone to accept Him. He won't have to. His love is a powerful thing...(and we aren't at the "end of the story" yet).

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UR is not wrong, it is clearly biblical.
2 Corinthians 5 clearly states that God reconciled the world to Himself.
But US is wrong. Not everybody will accept Jesus as there Savior.
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Paul clearly states some will not obey the Gospel. That is an absolute requirement.

mkgal1 said:

You'd asked this about "priests" being a father--> eldest son thing. I haven't studied Jewish culture....but I do know that not all the traditions of the ancient Jewish culture are written in the Old Testament. What we do have, though, are a few verses that show Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob doing "priestly" ceremonial rituals to God.

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I am still waiting for you to show this in Scripture.
Where did Isaac and Jacob perform priestly duties?

mkgal1 said:

Another passage that's difficult to reconcile without the Universal Reconcilation framework is 2nd Chronicles 28, where it's written:

Ahaz became king at the age of twenty, and he ruled in Jerusalem for sixteen years. He did not follow the good example of his ancestor King David; instead, he did what was not pleasing to the Lord 2and followed the example of the kings of Israel. He had metal images of Baal made, 3 burned incense in Hinnom Valley, and even sacrificed his own sons as burnt offerings to idols, imitating the disgusting practice of the people whom the Lord had driven out of the land as the Israelites advanced. 4 At the pagan places of worship, on the hills, and under every shady tree Ahaz offered sacrifices and burned incense.

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I don't see the point.

Doug Melven said:

It is harmonious with those Scriptures. It is not harmonious with your interpretation of those verses.

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I asked "why". You didn't answer that:

Why can't that verse be harmonious with a universalist interpretation of passages in the Scriptures such as Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13; 21:5; 1 Cor.15:22-28?

Doug Melven said:

You say everybody will believe, but Jesus says there will still be unbelievers.
If everybody is going to believe, why did Jesus there will be unbelievers in the Lake of Fire?

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The universalist view is that the Scriptures that speak of final destiny teach the eventual salvation of all. OTOH your verse (Rev.21:8) re unbelievers in the lake of fire isn't final destiny & can't be because of the other universalist verses. So why should i accept your interpretation instead of the universalist view?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Doug Melven said:

UR is not wrong, it is clearly biblical.
2 Corinthians 5 clearly states that God reconciled the world to Himself.
But US is wrong. Not everybody will accept Jesus as there Savior.

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ClementofA said:

I asked "why". You didn't answer that:

Why can't that verse be harmonious with a universalist interpretation of passages in the Scriptures such as Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13; 21:5; 1 Cor.15:22-28?



The universalist view is that the Scriptures that speak of final destiny teach the eventual salvation of all. OTOH your verse (Rev.21:8) re unbelievers in the lake of fire isn't final destiny & can't be because of the other universalist verses. So why should i accept your interpretation instead of the universalist view?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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US says that everybody will be saved. Everybody will accept Christ.
Romans 10 says there will be people who will not obey the Gospel.
Bending a knee and saying "You are LORD" does not constitute a change of heart.
Jesus said many people will call Him Lord, but they were not saved.

Doug Melven said:

US says that everybody will be saved. Everybody will accept Christ.
Romans 10 says there will be people who will not obey the Gospel.

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Romans 10 says there *are* people who are not "obeying the Gospel" (not that it's mainly about "obeying"...just using your phrase). You keep looking at it in a static and unchanging way. God's love is dynamic.....not static.

Doug Melven said:

Bending a knee and saying "You are LORD" does not constitute a change of heart.
Jesus said many people will call Him Lord, but they were not saved.

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How do you imagine this? As God like the guards of the Spanish Inquisition....holding a knife to the necks of people demanding them to bow? Doesn't that go against your belief (that I firmly agree with you on) that God won't force allegiance on anyone?

Doug Melven said:

I am still waiting for you to show this in Scripture.
Where did Isaac and Jacob perform priestly duties?

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Isaac=

Jacob =

Doug Melven said:

You really need to take a serious look at Leviticus.

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I am right now.....and I am finding something pretty fascinating (something I'd never noticed before).

It seems to me that Jesus was fulfilling the role of the High Priest visiting and inspecting the Temple when He "cleansed the Temple" as recorded in the Gospels. But notice what's missing?

mkgal1 said:

Begin quote

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Jesus was speaking of Ghenna......and who were the "believers" at that point in history? Who were the "unbelievers" that were chanting to have Jesus killed? Who could have been classified as the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and liars of Jesus' time? (Hint: who missed their Messiah at His the time their visitation?)....

End

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Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting pieces of scripture out-of-context. The problem with this argument is Rev 21:8 does not occur in Jesus' lifetime it is after the resurrection. It is also after the new earth and the new heaven, vss 1 through 8 are a continuous narrative there is no credible, reasonable, grammatical or any other way any of these verses can be ripped out-of-context and made to refer to any earlier time.
Notice all the conjunctions. This is a deliberate Greek figure of speech called Polysyndeton.
All these events are inextricably bound together.

mkgal1 said:

Romans 10 says there *are* people who are not "obeying the Gospel" (not that it's mainly about "obeying"...just using your phrase). You keep looking at it in a static and unchanging way. God's love is dynamic.....not static.

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I don't get what you mean when you say I look at it in a static and unchanging way.
The Word of God is alive and it is just as good for us as it was for the original readers.
There were people in Isaiah's day who did not believe the Gospel.
There were people in Paul's day who did not believe the Gospel.
There are people today who do not believe the Gospel.
There will always be people who will not believe the Gospel.

mkgal1 said:

How do you imagine this? As God like the guards of the Spanish Inquisition....holding a knife to the necks of people demanding them to bow? Doesn't that go against your belief (that I firmly agree with you on) that God won't force allegiance on anyone?

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When these unbelievers see God in all His glory, they will then say He was just.
Our sun is 93 million miles away and we can not look directly at it for very long because it is so bright.
Revelation 1 says that Jesus' face is as the sun. And when they are standing before Him, He will not be 93 million miles away.
But there will be no change of heart.
Romans 10:9 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness.

mkgal1 said:

I am right now.....and I am finding something pretty fascinating (something I'd never noticed before).

It seems to me that Jesus was fulfilling the role of the High Priest visiting and inspecting the Temple when He "cleansed the Temple" as recorded in the Gospels. But notice what's missing?

The priest will then perform the purification offering and make reconciliation for the person needing purification from their uncleanness. After that, the entirely burned offering will be slaughtered. 20 The priest will offer up the entirely burned offering and the grain offering on the altar. In this way, the priest will make reconciliation for the person, and they will be clean again.~Leviticus 14:19-20

****************

...then he who owns the house shall come and tell the priest, ‘There seems to me to be some case of disease in my house.’~Leviticus 14:35

Then the priest shall command that they empty the house before the priest goes to examine the disease, lest all that is in the house be declared unclean. And afterward the priest shall go in to see the house. 37 And he shall examine the disease.~Leviticus 14:36-37

...then the priest shall command that they take out the stones in which is the disease and throw them into an unclean place outside the city. 41 And he shall have the inside of the house scraped all around, and the plaster that they scrape off they shall pour out in an unclean place outside the city …Leviticus 14:40-41

the priest will return. If he finds that the infection has spread throughout the house, it is a case of infectious skin disease in the house; the house is unclean.45 The house must be destroyed—its stones, wood, and all the plaster in the house. All of it must be taken outside the city to an unclean area.~Leviticus 14:44-45

​

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Still waiting for an answer on why did God require all of those animals to be sacrificed.



As to the possibility that people can still get saved after they die. Paul is quite clear on this.
Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

And what will happen to someone who is guilty of what Hebrews talks about?
6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Jesus Christ is not getting back up on the cross.

Doug Melven said:

US says that everybody will be saved. Everybody will accept Christ.
Romans 10 says there will be people who will not obey the Gospel.
Bending a knee and saying "You are LORD" does not constitute a change of heart.
Jesus said many people will call Him Lord, but they were not saved.

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Does Romans 10 say anyone will "never" obey the gospel, even after death?
Did Jesus say they would "never" be saved?

Doug Melven said:

As to the possibility that people can still get saved after they die. Paul is quite clear on this.
Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

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"So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth." (Gen.6:13)

The "end" of all people was "destruction" by God (Gen.6:13). This already happened. Yet they are not annihilated forever. And they will be resurrected. This shows that "end" does not refer to final destiny, so Phil.3:19 fails as a proof text against universalism.

Doug Melven said:

And what will happen to someone who is guilty of what Hebrews talks about?
6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

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It is impossible to renew them to repentance (v.4) as long as they continue rejecting Christ (& while they are crucifying Him):

Hebrews 6:4-6 (CLV)
4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of holy spirit,
5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,
6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy. (CLV)

Verse 6:

ISV and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God to their own detriment by exposing him to public ridicule.

AMPC If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

CJB and then have fallen away — it is impossible to renew them so that they turn from their sin, as long as for themselves they keep executing the Son of God on the stake all over again and keep holding him up to public contempt.

In Acts 14:8 we read of a lame man who was unable to walk. It was impossible for him to walk. The same Greek word is used for "impossible" as in Hebrews 6. While it was impossible for the man to walk or cure himself of his inability to walk, it was possible with God's help. In verses 9-10 he was healed.

"Read how the same Greek word for impossible "adunatos" is used in Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27 and Luke 18:27. In Acts 14:8, Romans 8:3, and Romans 15:1 it is interpreted as "weak", "could not do" and "impotent." Using a strict literal method without proper CONTEXT has resulted in much ridiculous religious dogmatism regarding this verse."

"The word 'impossible' here has the same force as in Matt. 19:26, where it is said to be impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In reply to the apostles' question,"who, then, can be saved?" Jesus said: "With men it is impossible, but with God everything is possible." This can be restated as, "With men it is hard but everything is easy with God."

"Calmet says: "Paul by no means intended to exclude sincere repentance for forgiveness of sin which we commit after being saved." Rosenmuller, a celebrated German theologian says: "The Greek word for impossible 'Adunatos' in this place does not mean absolutely impossible. It means nearly impossible but not absolutely impossible."

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf[/QUOTE]

ClementofA said:

It is impossible to renew them to repentance (v.4) as long as they continue rejecting Christ (& while they are crucifying Him):
Hebrews 6:4-6 (CLV)
4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of holy spirit,
5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,
6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy. (CLV)
Verse 6:
ISV and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God to their own detriment by exposing him to public ridicule.
AMPC If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.
CJB and then have fallen away — it is impossible to renew them so that they turn from their sin, as long as for themselves they keep executing the Son of God on the stake all over again and keep holding him up to public contempt.
In Acts 14:8 we read of a lame man who was unable to walk. It was impossible for him to walk. The same Greek word is used for "impossible" as in Hebrews 6. While it was impossible for the man to walk or cure himself of his inability to walk, it was possible with God's help. In verses 9-10 he was healed.
"Read how the same Greek word for impossible "adunatos" is used in Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27 and Luke 18:27. In Acts 14:8, Romans 8:3, and Romans 15:1 it is interpreted as "weak", "could not do" and "impotent." Using a strict literal method without proper CONTEXT has resulted in much ridiculous religious dogmatism regarding this verse."
"The word 'impossible' here has the same force as in Matt. 19:26, where it is said to be impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In reply to the apostles' question,"who, then, can be saved?" Jesus said: "With men it is impossible, but with God everything is possible." This can be restated as, "With men it is hard but everything is easy with God."
"Calmet says: "Paul by no means intended to exclude sincere repentance for forgiveness of sin which we commit after being saved." Rosenmuller, a celebrated German theologian says: "The Greek word for impossible 'Adunatos' in this place does not mean absolutely impossible. It means nearly impossible but not absolutely impossible."
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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Argument by copy/paste. Nothing original.