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Food for thought concerning hell …

Dan Perez

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Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Hi JulieB67 and thanks for chiming in … I’m not sure what you mean by “the gulf? Do you have in mind the parable Jesus spoke concerning the rich man and Lazarus; specifically the gulf that divided the two? If so can you elaborate?

I am still working out my thoughts on the LOF. I know many use hell and the LOF interchangeably but I think it’s pretty clear from Scripture they are not the same, seeing as hell is cast in to the LOF. Right now I lean towards the LOF being the purifying fire of God as our God is a consuming fire.

I agree with you concerning the Total & Complete Restoration of all things.

Hi Dan,
if by chance I have said something to offend you please let me know as I am only trying to share and receive insight and wisdom from brothers in Jesus. I have highlighted a portion of my comment above. Is this statement the one that I perceive has provoked you? If so, read it again slowly as I believe we both are in agreement. No?

Thanks for chiming in and hopefully we move forward as we are seeking to work out our salvation in the active transforming Grace of God.

blessings …
And I am not offended ,

I did look at the Greek text of Luke 16:26 .

And between the rich man and Lazarus there was a GREAT // MEGAS , and adjective , in the Accusative Case , meaning LIMITED , in the Singular and in the Neuter , meaning Male and Female , G3173

GULF // CHASMA , a noun , also in the Accusative Case , in the Singular and in the Neuter , and the Rich Man was AFAR OFF.

G3113 and G 575 , check STRONGS .

And in Isa 5:14 HELL , HATH ENLARGED // RAHAB is verb called HIPHIL , which means to make known or to , to declare and is in the Hebrew , perfect tense and in the Singular , H 7337 .

dan p
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Hi Dan, glad I didn’t offend you and thanks for letting me know. Now, concerning the word hell … I understand the “word” hell is found in various bible translations. It is also found absent from many translation. The word Sheol, Hade, Gehenna and Tartarus are proper names and shouldn’t be “translated” in the first place. Why the diversity in translations? No “hell” found in ESV, ASV, YLT, and Rothmans to name but just a few.

Weird how a doctrine of such grave magnitude concerning the ETERNAL suffering of mankind, cant be agreed upon by scholars. I can see you know how to use bible tools but take a look at the usage. Read the context … you got Jacob and David both crying and desiring to go see there sons in Sheol so translators use grave instead of hell but the problem is there is another word for grave and it’s only used as just that. But wait … now the earth opens up and enlarges its mouth and all of a sudden it’s rendered hell?

The fact is … there is simply no justification for translating the proper name Sheol in to anything. If left untranslated as Sheol those same scenarios make sense. Translation liberties and translator bias is the real culprit. The simple truth is the word Sheol is the unseen and the Hebrews did not even have a concept of eternal suffering and torment.

blessings
 
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martymonster

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Yes indeed brother His Mercy endures forever … thanks again for your comments and please share more if you are so moved.

Let me caution you against falling into the trap that others have fallen into. There are many things that must be unlearned. You must continue on and not end your journey here.
 
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ozso

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Hello all. Let me begin by saying I absolutely love Jesus and in Him alone do I rest. At one time in my life I held to the Orthodox position of eternal hell. I was frequenting the debate forum at Steve Brown’s website. There was an individual who carried the name “Kings Kid.“ He challenged me on the Orthodox position of hell I was holding to. He provided me with some food for thought by asking some questions I had never considered. If you are here under a different name, let me just say thanks ”Kings kid!” I‘m so grateful you had the courage to basically stand alone and defend the truth God had revealed to you.

1). If you truly believe in the Orthodox view of hell, how often do you offer the Gospel and warn people of hell? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? Ever?

After thinking about it I was reminded of a statement I heard from a pastor. He stated an unbeliever he was speaking to replied to him; if I believed in a place like hell, as you do, I would crawl across hot coals of fire to warn people of this horrific place you call hell. I confessed to God I was delinquent in my responsibility to proclaim the Gospel. I questioned whether my heart had grown cold, was I afraid to speak the truth or perhaps I was not as convinced of the reality of hell. So down the road I continued to kick the can.

2). The word hell and the concept of eternal damnation was not a part of the Hebrew culture nor the Scriptures. Look up the word Sheol and reference each occurrence and see if hell makes any sense in the context.

My answer: After looking up the word Sheol and looking at the context of all the Scriptural references , I was appalled. I found there to be zero justification to translate the word Sheol in to hell. Very inconsistent. I looked at various translations and was shocked at the inconsistency of rendering Sheol as hell. If scholars cant agree on the proper rendering of Sheol … it made me wonder. Gracious! This is not a subject that should be ambiguous. There should absolutely be no ambiguity in the Scriptures on hell If it real. Yet, there most definitely is …

3). Why is there no mention or warning of hell in the following: No mention of it in the creation account. Nothing said from God to Adam and Eve. Nothing said about it by the Lord when he confronts and rebukes Cain For murder. No mention of hell in the flood account. No mention of it from Moses in the handing down the Ten Commandment.

My answer: After checking it out I found it to be true! Where on earth does the idea of hell come from in the Old Testament? God never spoke of it. Never warned of it. How can the New Testament “seem” to sound the alarm and warn of hell if the Old Testament is silent? Does this mean if you were born in OT times you will be judged by your works because you were never warned? Well how fortunate for them and unfortunate for those born in the times of The Christ and forward. My thought is if the people of God in both Old and New Testaments, according to the book of Hebrews, are saved by faith in the God of Israel. Does it not follow that judgement against the ones whom have no faith, would be consistent too?

4). Paul is credited with authoring 13 epistles under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He stated in the book of Acts that he failed not to proclaim the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27). Did Paul lie? Why did Paul, not one time, mention hell in any of his Epistles? Also, Paul publicly engaged the philosophers at Mars Hill and preached to them the unknown god; yet, why did he fail to even once mentioned hell? Why didn’t John, the beloved disciple of Jesus not mention hell in his Epistles nor in his Gospel? In fact, why didn’t any of the Apostles warn of this place hell? Did the Apostles fail to fulfill the commandment of Jesus in the Great Commission?

My Answer: I am dumb-founded and at a loss for words at this point. Is this for real? After checking it out and finding it to be true, I surrendered to the Lord my erroneous position on hell. I knew changing my position on hell went against Orthodoxy but … I cannot unsee what the Lord has shown me. Never again will I slander the Character of God by ascribing to Him that which man devised.

5). Why are the proper names, Gehenna, Hades or Tartarus translated In to hell? How many hells are there? Why were proper names translated in to another name?

My answer: This is apparently a rule of grammar of which I was unaware but after checking a bit it looks like that is indeed true in most instances. Why then did translators feel they were at liberty to break a standard rule of interpretation? I’m not sure but it seems to me I do not recall seeing this done in the Old Testament?

I simply wanted to share with you these questions, and there were more, to stimulate some thinking that perhaps you have not considered. I went bible school, learned some Greek and Hebrew, majored in theology, preached and taught adults and attended church regularly. Yet, after weighing these matters carefully on my own and searching the Scriptures, I couldn’t escape what I would say is a definitive example of what I heard R.C. Sproul call, as he debated MacArthur around the doctrine of infant baptism; an argument from silence! Sometimes what one doesn’t say speaks volumes on a matter with deafening silence. I read somewhere there are approximately 30,000 verses in the Scriptures. Wow! That is a ton of opportunities for God to warn of this horrific place but He chose to be silent. Wonder Why …

PS I received this thought from the Lord while with him in silent conversational prayer. He asked me if I thought he would ever leave the Glory of His NAME in the hands of men? No I replied. He said to me, I made you in my image, would I send those who bare my image to hell? Again I replied, no. He said, If my image is consigned to hell then, MY NAME is also being condemned. Never! I am the Lord and I will not share my Glory with another. I would never allow MY NAME and My Glory to be condemned!

Blessings …
The two official hell verses in the OT are Isaiah 66:24, especially since Jesus quotes it in Mark 9:43-49. And Daniel 12:2. Verses attributed to Paul talking about hell are Romans 9:22-23, Galatians 6:8, Philippians 3:19, 2 Thessalonians 1:9
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Let me caution you against falling into the trap that others have fallen into. There are many things that must be unlearned. You must continue on and not end your journey here.
Hello brother and you are most certainly correct; I have a lifetime, from age 19-50, of mans teaching to sift through. Once I saw the slandering of God’s Name I was doing in propagating the false doctrine of hell; I repented of this false teaching. I then told the LORD, everything I have learned and held up to this point as truth is on the table for examination. Just point it out LORD and I’ll toss it in to the trash to be burned up with all the other tares I have growing in my heart.

blessings …
 
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Dan Perez

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Hi Dan, glad I didn’t offend you and thanks for letting me know. Now, concerning the word hell … I understand the “word” hell is found in various bible translations. It is also found absent from many translation. The word Sheol, Hade, Gehenna and Tartarus are proper names and shouldn’t be “translated” in the first place. Why the diversity in translations? No “hell” found in ESV, ASV, YLT, and Rothmans to name but just a few.

Weird how a doctrine of such grave magnitude concerning the ETERNAL suffering of mankind, cant be agreed upon by scholars. I can see you know how to use bible tools but take a look at the usage. Read the context … you got Jacob and David both crying and desiring to go see there sons in Sheol so translators use grave instead of hell but the problem is there is another word for grave and it’s only used as just that. But wait … now the earth opens up and enlarges its mouth and all of a sudden it’s rendered hell?

The fact is … there is simply no justification for translating the proper name Sheol in to anything. If left untranslated as Sheol those same scenarios make sense. Translation liberties and translator bias is the real culprit. The simple truth is the word Sheol is the unseen and the Hebrews did not even have a concept of eternal suffering and torment.

blessings
I have a book by a well known writer and knows Greek and HEBREW and has sat down with many other scholars and THEY

never agree either !!

dan p
 
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