Food for thought concerning hell …

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Hello all. Let me begin by saying I absolutely love Jesus and in Him alone do I rest. At one time in my life I held to the Orthodox position of eternal hell. I was frequenting the debate forum at Steve Brown’s website. There was an individual who carried the name “Kings Kid.“ He challenged me on the Orthodox position of hell I was holding to. He provided me with some food for thought by asking some questions I had never considered. If you are here under a different name, let me just say thanks ”Kings kid!” I‘m so grateful you had the courage to basically stand alone and defend the truth God had revealed to you.

1). If you truly believe in the Orthodox view of hell, how often do you offer the Gospel and warn people of hell? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? Ever?

After thinking about it I was reminded of a statement I heard from a pastor. He stated an unbeliever he was speaking to replied to him; if I believed in a place like hell, as you do, I would crawl across hot coals of fire to warn people of this horrific place you call hell. I confessed to God I was delinquent in my responsibility to proclaim the Gospel. I questioned whether my heart had grown cold, was I afraid to speak the truth or perhaps I was not as convinced of the reality of hell. So down the road I continued to kick the can.

2). The word hell and the concept of eternal damnation was not a part of the Hebrew culture nor the Scriptures. Look up the word Sheol and reference each occurrence and see if hell makes any sense in the context.

My answer: After looking up the word Sheol and looking at the context of all the Scriptural references , I was appalled. I found there to be zero justification to translate the word Sheol in to hell. Very inconsistent. I looked at various translations and was shocked at the inconsistency of rendering Sheol as hell. If scholars cant agree on the proper rendering of Sheol … it made me wonder. Gracious! This is not a subject that should be ambiguous. There should absolutely be no ambiguity in the Scriptures on hell If it real. Yet, there most definitely is …

3). Why is there no mention or warning of hell in the following: No mention of it in the creation account. Nothing said from God to Adam and Eve. Nothing said about it by the Lord when he confronts and rebukes Cain For murder. No mention of hell in the flood account. No mention of it from Moses in the handing down the Ten Commandment.

My answer: After checking it out I found it to be true! Where on earth does the idea of hell come from in the Old Testament? God never spoke of it. Never warned of it. How can the New Testament “seem” to sound the alarm and warn of hell if the Old Testament is silent? Does this mean if you were born in OT times you will be judged by your works because you were never warned? Well how fortunate for them and unfortunate for those born in the times of The Christ and forward. My thought is if the people of God in both Old and New Testaments, according to the book of Hebrews, are saved by faith in the God of Israel. Does it not follow that judgement against the ones whom have no faith, would be consistent too?

4). Paul is credited with authoring 13 epistles under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He stated in the book of Acts that he failed not to proclaim the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27). Did Paul lie? Why did Paul, not one time, mention hell in any of his Epistles? Also, Paul publicly engaged the philosophers at Mars Hill and preached to them the unknown god; yet, why did he fail to even once mentioned hell? Why didn’t John, the beloved disciple of Jesus not mention hell in his Epistles nor in his Gospel? In fact, why didn’t any of the Apostles warn of this place hell? Did the Apostles fail to fulfill the commandment of Jesus in the Great Commission?

My Answer: I am dumb-founded and at a loss for words at this point. Is this for real? After checking it out and finding it to be true, I surrendered to the Lord my erroneous position on hell. I knew changing my position on hell went against Orthodoxy but … I cannot unsee what the Lord has shown me. Never again will I slander the Character of God by ascribing to Him that which man devised.

5). Why are the proper names, Gehenna, Hades or Tartarus translated In to hell? How many hells are there? Why were proper names translated in to another name?

My answer: This is apparently a rule of grammar of which I was unaware but after checking a bit it looks like that is indeed true in most instances. Why then did translators feel they were at liberty to break a standard rule of interpretation? I’m not sure but it seems to me I do not recall seeing this done in the Old Testament?

I simply wanted to share with you these questions, and there were more, to stimulate some thinking that perhaps you have not considered. I went bible school, learned some Greek and Hebrew, majored in theology, preached and taught adults and attended church regularly. Yet, after weighing these matters carefully on my own and searching the Scriptures, I couldn’t escape what I would say is a definitive example of what I heard R.C. Sproul call, as he debated MacArthur around the doctrine of infant baptism; an argument from silence! Sometimes what one doesn’t say speaks volumes on a matter with deafening silence. I read somewhere there are approximately 30,000 verses in the Scriptures. Wow! That is a ton of opportunities for God to warn of this horrific place but He chose to be silent. Wonder Why …

PS I received this thought from the Lord while with him in silent conversational prayer. He asked me if I thought he would ever leave the Glory of His NAME in the hands of men? No I replied. He said to me, I made you in my image, would I send those who bare my image to hell? Again I replied, no. He said, If my image is consigned to hell then, MY NAME is also being condemned. Never! I am the Lord and I will not share my Glory with another. I would never allow MY NAME and My Glory to be condemned!

Blessings …

 

[Unqualified]

Psalm 9:17
Pro 23:14
Mat 5:22
Acts 2:27
Rev 20:14

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Psalm 9:17
Pro 23:14
Mat 5:22
Acts 2:27
Rev 20:14

Thank you for the reply. I’m familiar with these verses but You haven’t left any comments concerning them.

 

[martymonster]

Hello all. Let me begin by saying I absolutely love Jesus and in Him alone do I rest. At one time in my life I held to the Orthodox position of eternal hell. I was frequenting the debate forum at Steve Brown’s website. There was an individual who carried the name “Kings Kid.“ He challenged me on the Orthodox position of hell I was holding to. He provided me with some food for thought by asking some questions I had never considered. If you are here under a different name, let me just say thanks ”Kings kid!” I‘m so grateful you had the courage to basically stand alone and defend the truth God had revealed to you.

1). If you truly believe in the Orthodox view of hell, how often do you offer the Gospel and warn people of hell? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? Ever?

After thinking about it I was reminded of a statement I heard from a pastor. He stated an unbeliever he was speaking to replied to him; if I believed in a place like hell, as you do, I would crawl across hot coals of fire to warn people of this horrific place you call hell. I confessed to God I was delinquent in my responsibility to proclaim the Gospel. I questioned whether my heart had grown cold, was I afraid to speak the truth or perhaps I was not as convinced of the reality of hell. So down the road I continued to kick the can.

2). The word hell and the concept of eternal damnation was not a part of the Hebrew culture nor the Scriptures. Look up the word Sheol and reference each occurrence and see if hell makes any sense in the context.

My answer: After looking up the word Sheol and looking at the context of all the Scriptural references , I was appalled. I found there to be zero justification to translate the word Sheol in to hell. Very inconsistent. I looked at various translations and was shocked at the inconsistency of rendering Sheol as hell. If scholars cant agree on the proper rendering of Sheol … it made me wonder. Gracious! This is not a subject that should be ambiguous. There should absolutely be no ambiguity in the Scriptures on hell If it real. Yet, there most definitely is …

3). Why is there no mention or warning of hell in the following: No mention of it in the creation account. Nothing said from God to Adam and Eve. Nothing said about it by the Lord when he confronts and rebukes Cain For murder. No mention of hell in the flood account. No mention of it from Moses in the handing down the Ten Commandment.

My answer: After checking it out I found it to be true! Where on earth does the idea of hell come from in the Old Testament? God never spoke of it. Never warned of it. How can the New Testament “seem” to sound the alarm and warn of hell if the Old Testament is silent? Does this mean if you were born in OT times you will be judged by your works because you were never warned? Well how fortunate for them and unfortunate for those born in the times of The Christ and forward. My thought is if the people of God in both Old and New Testaments, according to the book of Hebrews, are saved by faith in the God of Israel. Does it not follow that judgement against the ones whom have no faith, would be consistent too?

4). Paul is credited with authoring 13 epistles under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He stated in the book of Acts that he failed not to proclaim the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27). Did Paul lie? Why did Paul, not one time, mention hell in any of his Epistles? Also, Paul publicly engaged the philosophers at Mars Hill and preached to them the unknown god; yet, why did he fail to even once mentioned hell? Why didn’t John, the beloved disciple of Jesus not mention hell in his Epistles nor in his Gospel? In fact, why didn’t any of the Apostles warn of this place hell? Did the Apostles fail to fulfill the commandment of Jesus in the Great Commission?

My Answer: I am dumb-founded and at a loss for words at this point. Is this for real? After checking it out and finding it to be true, I surrendered to the Lord my erroneous position on hell. I knew changing my position on hell went against Orthodoxy but … I cannot unsee what the Lord has shown me. Never again will I slander the Character of God by ascribing to Him that which man devised.

5). Why are the proper names, Gehenna, Hades or Tartarus translated In to hell? How many hells are there? Why were proper names translated in to another name?

My answer: This is apparently a rule of grammar of which I was unaware but after checking a bit it looks like that is indeed true in most instances. Why then did translators feel they were at liberty to break a standard rule of interpretation? I’m not sure but it seems to me I do not recall seeing this done in the Old Testament?

I simply wanted to share with you these questions, and there were more, to stimulate some thinking that perhaps you have not considered. I went bible school, learned some Greek and Hebrew, majored in theology, preached and taught adults and attended church regularly. Yet, after weighing these matters carefully on my own and searching the Scriptures, I couldn’t escape what I would say is a definitive example of what I heard R.C. Sproul call, as he debated MacArthur around the doctrine of infant baptism; an argument from silence! Sometimes what one doesn’t say speaks volumes on a matter with deafening silence. I read somewhere there are approximately 30,000 verses in the Scriptures. Wow! That is a ton of opportunities for God to warn of this horrific place but He chose to be silent. Wonder Why …

PS I received this thought from the Lord while with him in silent conversational prayer. He asked me if I thought he would ever leave the Glory of His NAME in the hands of men? No I replied. He said to me, I made you in my image, would I send those who bare my image to hell? Again I replied, no. He said, If my image is consigned to hell then, MY NAME is also being condemned. Never! I am the Lord and I will not share my Glory with another. I would never allow MY NAME and My Glory to be condemned!

Blessings …

Good for you man!

You would have thought God would have at least issued that warning to Jezabel... but no, that seems to be strangely absent.

 

[bling]

You might look at this scholar's work on the subject:

 

[Matt5]

In the following article, the author explains how Jesus says that you don't go to heaven or hell immediately upon death. When you die, you are dead.

What Is the Real Meaning of the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus?

In that parable, the rich man immediately goes to hell, and Lazarus immediately goes to heaven. Not true literally.

I think the time-frame surrounds the return of Jesus. Heaven is the kingdom of heaven that Jesus establishes on Earth upon his arrival. Hell is merely the effects of radiation from the harvests (nuclear wars.) The harvests shortly precede the return of Jesus (parable of the talents). The rich lands are targeted for harvests. Th poor lands aren't.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

You might look at this scholar's work on the subject:

Hi there bling. Thanks for chiming in and for sharing the link. I’ll have a-look-see later this evening …

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

In the following article, the author explains how Jesus says that you don't go to heaven or hell immediately upon death. When you die, you are dead.

What Is the Real Meaning of the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus?

In that parable, the rich man immediately goes to hell, and Lazarus immediately goes to heaven. Not true literally.

I think the time-frame surrounds the return of Jesus. Heaven is the kingdom of heaven that Jesus establishes on Earth upon his arrival. Hell is merely the effects of radiation from the harvests (nuclear wars.) The harvests shortly precede the return of Jesus (parable of the talents). The rich lands are targeted for harvests. Th poor lands aren't.

Hi Matt and thanks for sharing. I’ll check out the link you provided and get back with you on my thoughts.

 

[David Lamb]

In the following article, the author explains how Jesus says that you don't go to heaven or hell immediately upon death. When you die, you are dead.

What Is the Real Meaning of the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus?

In that parable, the rich man immediately goes to hell, and Lazarus immediately goes to heaven. Not true literally.

I think the time-frame surrounds the return of Jesus. Heaven is the kingdom of heaven that Jesus establishes on Earth upon his arrival. Hell is merely the effects of radiation from the harvests (nuclear wars.) The harvests shortly precede the return of Jesus (parable of the talents). The rich lands are targeted for harvests. Th poor lands aren't.

I think a clearer instance is found in the words of Jesus to the thief on the cross beside Him, who had said, "Lord remember me when You come into Your kingdom":

“Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Lu 23:43 NKJV)

I fail to see any biblical reason for your belief that hell is "merely the effects of radiation from the harvests (nuclear wars.)", or that only rich lands are targeted for the harvests - Jesus explains His parable of the wheat and the tares like this:

“38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked [one]. 39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.” (Mt 13:38-39 NKJV)

 

[JulieB67]

I cannot unsee what the Lord has shown me. Never again will I slander the Character of God by ascribing to Him that which man devised.

That's how I felt as well.

But I will say I do believe in the gulf at this point and I believe in the Lake of Fire which is the second death. I do not believe in an eternal hell. I believe after Judgement Day, God will make all things new and the former things (including the Lake of Fire) will be pass away.

 

[Dan Perez]

Hello all. Let me begin by saying I absolutely love Jesus and in Him alone do I rest. At one time in my life I held to the Orthodox position of eternal hell. I was frequenting the debate forum at Steve Brown’s website. There was an individual who carried the name “Kings Kid.“ He challenged me on the Orthodox position of hell I was holding to. He provided me with some food for thought by asking some questions I had never considered. If you are here under a different name, let me just say thanks ”Kings kid!” I‘m so grateful you had the courage to basically stand alone and defend the truth God had revealed to you.

1). If you truly believe in the Orthodox view of hell, how often do you offer the Gospel and warn people of hell? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? Ever?

After thinking about it I was reminded of a statement I heard from a pastor. He stated an unbeliever he was speaking to replied to him; if I believed in a place like hell, as you do, I would crawl across hot coals of fire to warn people of this horrific place you call hell. I confessed to God I was delinquent in my responsibility to proclaim the Gospel. I questioned whether my heart had grown cold, was I afraid to speak the truth or perhaps I was not as convinced of the reality of hell. So down the road I continued to kick the can.

2). The word hell and the concept of eternal damnation was not a part of the Hebrew culture nor the Scriptures. Look up the word Sheol and reference each occurrence and see if hell makes any sense in the context.

My answer: After looking up the word Sheol and looking at the context of all the Scriptural references , I was appalled. I found there to be zero justification to translate the word Sheol in to hell. Very inconsistent. I looked at various translations and was shocked at the inconsistency of rendering Sheol as hell. If scholars cant agree on the proper rendering of Sheol … it made me wonder. Gracious! This is not a subject that should be ambiguous. There should absolutely be no ambiguity in the Scriptures on hell If it real. Yet, there most definitely is …

3). Why is there no mention or warning of hell in the following: No mention of it in the creation account. Nothing said from God to Adam and Eve. Nothing said about it by the Lord when he confronts and rebukes Cain For murder. No mention of hell in the flood account. No mention of it from Moses in the handing down the Ten Commandment.

My answer: After checking it out I found it to be true! Where on earth does the idea of hell come from in the Old Testament? God never spoke of it. Never warned of it. How can the New Testament “seem” to sound the alarm and warn of hell if the Old Testament is silent? Does this mean if you were born in OT times you will be judged by your works because you were never warned? Well how fortunate for them and unfortunate for those born in the times of The Christ and forward. My thought is if the people of God in both Old and New Testaments, according to the book of Hebrews, are saved by faith in the God of Israel. Does it not follow that judgement against the ones whom have no faith, would be consistent too?

4). Paul is credited with authoring 13 epistles under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He stated in the book of Acts that he failed not to proclaim the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27). Did Paul lie? Why did Paul, not one time, mention hell in any of his Epistles? Also, Paul publicly engaged the philosophers at Mars Hill and preached to them the unknown god; yet, why did he fail to even once mentioned hell? Why didn’t John, the beloved disciple of Jesus not mention hell in his Epistles nor in his Gospel? In fact, why didn’t any of the Apostles warn of this place hell? Did the Apostles fail to fulfill the commandment of Jesus in the Great Commission?

My Answer: I am dumb-founded and at a loss for words at this point. Is this for real? After checking it out and finding it to be true, I surrendered to the Lord my erroneous position on hell. I knew changing my position on hell went against Orthodoxy but … I cannot unsee what the Lord has shown me. Never again will I slander the Character of God by ascribing to Him that which man devised.

5). Why are the proper names, Gehenna, Hades or Tartarus translated In to hell? How many hells are there? Why were proper names translated in to another name?

My answer: This is apparently a rule of grammar of which I was unaware but after checking a bit it looks like that is indeed true in most instances. Why then did translators feel they were at liberty to break a standard rule of interpretation? I’m not sure but it seems to me I do not recall seeing this done in the Old Testament?

I simply wanted to share with you these questions, and there were more, to stimulate some thinking that perhaps you have not considered. I went bible school, learned some Greek and Hebrew, majored in theology, preached and taught adults and attended church regularly. Yet, after weighing these matters carefully on my own and searching the Scriptures, I couldn’t escape what I would say is a definitive example of what I heard R.C. Sproul call, as he debated MacArthur around the doctrine of infant baptism; an argument from silence! Sometimes what one doesn’t say speaks volumes on a matter with deafening silence. I read somewhere there are approximately 30,000 verses in the Scriptures. Wow! That is a ton of opportunities for God to warn of this horrific place but He chose to be silent. Wonder Why …

PS I received this thought from the Lord while with him in silent conversational prayer. He asked me if I thought he would ever leave the Glory of His NAME in the hands of men? No I replied. He said to me, I made you in my image, would I send those who bare my image to hell? Again I replied, no. He said, If my image is consigned to hell then, MY NAME is also being condemned. Never! I am the Lord and I will not share my Glory with another. I would never allow MY NAME and My Glory to be condemned!

Blessings …

It is mentioned in Luke 16:31 And he said unto him , If they hear NOT // ME , means
that they will never hear as the Greek word NOT // OU , is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE , and means they will never listen , Moses and then prophets

neither will they be persuaded though one ROSE FROM THE DEAD >

dan p

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

That's how I felt as well.

But I will say to do believe in the gulf at this point and I believe in the Lake of Fire which is the second death. I do not believe in an eternal hell. I believe after Judgement Day, God will make all things new and the former (including the Lake of Fire) will be passed away.

Hi JulieB67 and thanks for chiming in … I’m not sure what you mean by “the gulf? Do you have in mind the parable Jesus spoke concerning the rich man and Lazarus; specifically the gulf that divided the two? If so can you elaborate?

I am still working out my thoughts on the LOF. I know many use hell and the LOF interchangeably but I think it’s pretty clear from Scripture they are not the same, seeing as hell is cast in to the LOF. Right now I lean towards the LOF being the purifying fire of God as our God is a consuming fire.

I agree with you concerning the Total & Complete Restoration of all things.

 

[Dan Perez]

Hi JulieB67 and thanks for chiming in … I’m not sure what you mean by “the gulf? Do you have in mind the parable Jesus spoke concerning the rich man and Lazarus; specifically the gulf that divided the two? If so can you elaborate?

I am still working out my thoughts on the LOF. I know many use hell and the LOF interchangeably but I think it’s pretty clear from Scripture they are not the same, seeing as hell is cast in to the LOF. Right now I lean towards the LOF being the purifying fire of God as our God is a consuming fire.

I agree with you concerning the Total & Complete Restoration of all things.

Rev 20:14 says that the second death , HELL is THROWN into the LAKE OF FIRE !!

They are not INTERINTERCHANGEABLY . PEROID !!

dan p

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Rev 20:14 says that the second death , HELL is THROWN into the LAKE OF FIRE !!

They are not INTERINTERCHANGEABLY . PEROID !!

dan p

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Hi JulieB67 and thanks for chiming in … I’m not sure what you mean by “the gulf? Do you have in mind the parable Jesus spoke concerning the rich man and Lazarus; specifically the gulf that divided the two? If so can you elaborate?

I am still working out my thoughts on the LOF. I know many use hell and the LOF interchangeably but I think it’s pretty clear from Scripture they are not the same, seeing as hell is cast in to the LOF. Right now I lean towards the LOF being the purifying fire of God as our God is a consuming fire.

I agree with you concerning the Total & Complete Restoration of all things.

Hi Dan,
if by chance I have said something to offend you please let me know as I am only trying to share and receive insight and wisdom from brothers in Jesus. I have highlighted a portion of my comment above. Is this statement the one that I perceive has provoked you? If so, read it again slowly as I believe we both are in agreement. No?

Thanks for chiming in and hopefully we move forward as we are seeking to work out our salvation in the active transforming Grace of God.

blessings …

Rev 20:14 says that the second death , HELL is THROWN into the LAKE OF FIRE !!

They are not INTERINTERCHANGEABLY . PEROID !!

dan p

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Good for you man!

You would have thought God would have at least issued that warning to Jezabel... but no, that seems to be strangely absent.

Yes indeed brother His Mercy endures forever … thanks again for your comments and please share more if you are so moved.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

You might look at this scholar's work on the subject:

Hi Bling. I have only been able to watch approximately 1/3 of it so far. Very knowledgeable and humble man. Enjoying the comparisons on the various views and how he delivers them without criticizing the views counter to his own. Thanks again for the link!

blessings

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

It is mentioned in Luke 16:31 And he said unto him , If they hear NOT // ME , means
that they will never hear as the Greek word NOT // OU , is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE , and means they will never listen , Moses and then prophets

neither will they be persuaded though one ROSE FROM THE DEAD >

dan p

Hi again Dan. What was the “it” you referred to in the above opening statement? hell? I Think the point Jesus was making in this parable is the Scripture are those which speak about Christ are sufficient to make one wise unto salvation. Let them hear Moses and the prophets because even the crowning demonstration of miracle, the bodily resurrection from the dead, will be insufficient to convince them.

 

[JulieB67]

Hi JulieB67 and thanks for chiming in … I’m not sure what you mean by “the gulf? Do you have in mind the parable Jesus spoke concerning the rich man and Lazarus; specifically the gulf that divided the two? If so can you elaborate?

Yes, I don't believe in soul sleep. I believe all are either on one side of the gulf or the other at this point. No one has been sentenced to the Lake of Fire yet. That comes at Judgement Day. I believe also Christ went to those souls on the one side (spirits in prison) during the 3 days after he died .
But I do believe that the death of the soul is the second death which coincides with Christ's teachings teaching in Matthew 10:28.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Yes, I don't believe in soul sleep. I believe all are either on one side of the gulf or the other at this point. No one has been sentenced to the Lake of Fire yet. That comes at Judgement Day. I believe also Christ went to those souls on the one side (spirits in prison) during the 3 days after he died .
But I do believe that the death of the soul is the second death which coincides with Christ's teachings teaching in Matthew 10:28.

Interesting thoughts … so what is happening to/with these individuals while they abide in their respective places and waiting for judgement? I need to re-read your thoughts later tomorrow. Wake up time for work is 3:30am and I can tell my brain is wandering and unable to focus well Or I’m sure I would have more question for you. Thanks for sharing …

blessings …

 

[JulieB67]

Interesting thoughts … so what is happening to/with these individuals while they abide in their respective places and waiting for judgement?

I don't know that exactly only what Christ describes -that the biggest torment would be that they can see to the other side I would imagine. The fact that they can't take part in that living water which is Christ is what I also would imagine.