Focused thread, SDA: Feast, New Moon, Sabbath and OT parallels

[tall73]

This is a focused thread on one aspect of a critical text in the Sabbath discussion. Colossians 2:16 is an oft-cited Scripture in the Sabbath debate. It is a complicated text in a number of ways, but this thread is looking at one element--proposed parallel old testament lists.

To illustrate the issue this thread is examining I will re-post a quote from an article that was cited in a recent Sabbath discussion on the forum.

Sunday Is Not the Sabbath

If we believe we have to "honor the Sabbath day," why aren’t Catholics obliged to attend Mass on Saturday instead of Sunday?

www.catholic.com

Moreover, it is important to note how Paul uses the same division of “festivals” (annual holy days), “new moons” (monthly holy days), and “Sabbaths” (the weekly holy days) that the Old Testament uses in 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:12-13, 31:3; and elsewhere, when referencing Jewish holy days. Clearly, along with the yearly and monthly holy days—which no Christian today claims is binding upon believers in Christ—the Sabbath is included in what Paul calls a mere shadow.

The article notes that holy days are mentioned in 1 Chronicles, and 2 Chronicles, and "elsewhere." The general thrust of the argument is that previous scripture listings could help clarify the nature of the holy times discussed.

One of the key questions from an Adventist perspective is whether the sabbath term has reference to the "weekly" sabbath. Some Adventists indicate that it is talking about "yearly" sabbaths.

Examples of yearly sabbaths would be the Day of Atonement, Trumpets, etc.

This focused thread will examine the following questions:

- what OT texts list holy times?
- Are there key differences between the Col. 2 list and the OT lists which indicate Paul does not have these lists in mind?
- Do these OT texts have any clear reference to weekly or yearly sabbaths?

This is an issue that Adventists have examined at various times. The majority of Adventist commentators do not think that the text refers to the weekly Sabbaths.

The Catholic article already cited takes issue with this, noting a progression from Yearly (festival) to monthly (new moon) to weekly (sabbath)

One Adventist commentator spelled out a position similar to the quote from the Catholic article above. Samuele Bacchiocchi, in "From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity" said the following:

The Sabbath in Colossians 2:16. The sacred times prescribed by the false teachers are referred to as “a festival or a new moon or a sabbath–eortes he neomenia he sabbaton” (2:16). The unanimous consensus of commentators is that these three words represent a logical and progressive sequence (annual, monthly and weekly) as well as an exhaustive enumeration of the sacred times. This view is validated by the occurrence of these terms, in similar or reverse sequence, five times in the Septuagint and
several times in other literature. There is, however, an exceptional occurrence in Isaiah 1:13-14 where the “new moon” is found at the beginning of the enumeration rather than in the middle, but an exception does not invalidate a common usage.

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary interprets the “sabbaton–sabbath days” as a reference to the annual ceremonial sabbaths Appendix: Paul and the Law 339 and not to the weekly Sabbath (Lev. 23-6-8, 15, 16, 21, 24, 25, 27, 28, 37,38). It is a fact that both the Sabbath and the Day of Atonement in Hebrew are designated by the compound expression shabbath shabbathon, meaning “a sabbath of solemn rest” (Ex. 31:15; 35:2; Lev. 23:3,32; 16:31). But this phrase is rendered in the Septuagint by the compound Greek expression “sabbata sabbaton” which is different from the simple “sabbaton” found in Colossians 2:16. It is therefore linguistically impossible to interpret the latter as a reference to the Day of Atonement or to any other ceremonial sabbaths, since these are never designated simply as “sabbata.”

The cited commentary rests its interpretation, however, not on the grammatical and linguistic use of the word “sabbaton” but rather on a theological interpretation of the Sabbath as related to ‘‘shadow in Colossians 2:17. It is argued that “the weekly Sabbath is a memorial of an event at the beginning of earth’s history... hence the “sabbath days” Paul declares to be shadows pointing to Christ cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath.., but must indicate the ceremonial rest days that reach their realization in Christ and
His Kingdom.” To determine the meaning of a word exclusively by theological as-sumptions, rather than by linguistic or contextual evidences, is against the canons of Biblical hermeneutics. Moreover even the theological interpretation which the Adventist commentary gives to the Sabbath is hard to justify, since we have seen that the Sabbath can legitimately be regarded as the “shadow” or fitting symbol of the present and future blessing of salvation.

Meanwhile, two other Adventists responded (apparently independently, but with similar arguments), to the above yearly, monthly, weekly point. These were David Conklin on his website (David is a member of these forums, or at least was, though I can't seem to link his profile here for some reason), and Ron du Preez in his book Putting the Sabbath to Rest: A Scriptural Study of Colossians 2:16 . du Preez has been an Adventist professor and scholar, and a member of the Biblical Research Institute.

They argued that the weekly sabbath was not in view, and that the progression is not regarding yearly, monthly, weekly, but instead, based on OT parallel passages, referred to three categories of holy times:

-Feasts
-New Moons
-Sabbaths

They note that the term "feast" is in reference to the pilgrim feasts, correlating with the word "chag" in Hebrew. Some of the yearly appointed times were not feasts but solemn assemblies, so they would not be included here, but in the Sabbaths. This would include the trumpets, Day of Atonement, etc. They are appointed times, but not "chag" or feasts.

As such in their argument you would have a listing of (yearly) feasts, (monthly) new moons, and (yearly) solemn assemblies/sabbaths.

In other words, they argue that instead of imposing a notion on the text, of yearly, monthly, weekly, that instead these are divisions of types of appointed times.

The following Old Testament passages have been proposed as parallels:


1 Chronicles 23:25 For David said, “The Lord God of Israel has given rest to His people, that they may dwell in Jerusalem forever”; 26 and also to the Levites, “They shall no longer carry the tabernacle, or any of the articles for its service.” 27 For by the last words of David the Levites were numbered from twenty years old and above; 28 because their duty was to help the sons of Aaron in the service of the house of the Lord, in the courts and in the chambers, in the purifying of all holy things and the work of the service of the house of God, 29 both with the showbread and the fine flour for the grain offering, with the unleavened cakes and what is baked in the pan, with what is mixed and with all kinds of measures and sizes; 30 to stand every morning to thank and praise the Lord, and likewise at evening; 31 and at every presentation of a burnt offering to the Lord on the Sabbaths and on the New Moons and on the set feasts, by number according to the ordinance governing them, regularly before the Lord; 32 and that they should attend to the needs of the tabernacle of meeting, the needs of the holy place, and the needs of the sons of Aaron their brethren in the work of the house of the Lord.


2 Chronicles 2:4 Behold, I am building a temple for the name of the Lord my God, to dedicate it to Him, to burn before Him sweet incense, for the continual showbread, for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths, on the New Moons, and on the set feasts of the Lord our God. This is an ordinance forever to Israel.

2 Chronicles 8:13 according to the daily rate, offering according to the commandment of Moses, for the Sabbaths, the New Moons, and the three appointed yearly feasts—the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Tabernacles.

2 Chronciles 31:2 And Hezekiah appointed the divisions of the priests and the Levites according to their divisions, each man according to his service, the priests and Levites for burnt offerings and peace offerings, to serve, to give thanks, and to praise in the gates of the camp of the Lord. 3 The king also appointed a portion of his possessions[ for the burnt offerings: for the morning and evening burnt offerings, the burnt offerings for the Sabbaths and the New Moons and the set feasts, as it is written in the Law of the Lord.

Nehemiah 10:32 Also we made ordinances for ourselves, to exact from ourselves yearly one-third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: 33 for the showbread, for the regular grain offering, for the regular burnt offering of the Sabbaths, the New Moons, and the set feasts; for the holy things, for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God.

Ezekiel 45:17 Then it shall be the prince’s part to give burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the New Moons, the Sabbaths, and at all the appointed seasons of the house of Israel. He shall prepare the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering, and the peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel.”

Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, Her feast days, Her New Moons,Her Sabbaths—All her appointed times.

Additionally, two longer passages have been suggested as parallels:
a. Numbers chapters 28-29
b. Leviticus chapter 23

With the above in mind, do you think Paul had these texts in mind when speaking of a feast, a new moon and a sabbath? And do you think Paul's understanding included the weekly sabbath?

 

[tall73]

Most think the lists in 1 and 2 Chronicles and Nehemiah are largely referring to the long-form information spelled out in Numbers 28-29 regarding what offerings are to be made on the various appointed times. One of the listing texts specifies "according to the commandment of Moses," in an apparent allusion to Numbers 28-29.


The weekly sabbath is included in Numbers 28, and has a sacrifice associated with it.

Numbers 28:9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:
10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

Therefore if some of the shorter listing passages are summations of Numbers 28-29 they would include the weekly sabbath.

--I edited to add some info from later in the thread to further look at the OT parallels, since some posters did not want to address the topic, and went other directions. This way people wanting to look into the parallel texts can get an idea of some of the issues.

I think 2 Chronicles 8:13 makes the case for the notion that the listing is broken down not by yearly, monthly, weekly, but as du Preez and Conklin asserted, by types of appointed times:

2 Chronicles 8:13 according to the daily rate, offering according to the commandment of Moses, for the Sabbaths, the New Moons, and the three appointed yearly feasts—the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Tabernacles.

Here the "feasts" element are broken down further, and include the feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Weeks and Feast of Tabernacles.


Because this text spells out the feast element it helps to clarify the Sabbath element. The Day of Atonement, etc. are sabbaths, but are apparently not included in the "feasts" portion, but rather in the sabbath portion.

On that basis I don't think Paul was indicating Yearly, Monthly, Weekly.

du Preez sees the list as Yearly, Monthly, Yearly as an example of inverted Hebrew parallelism.

However, I would not agree with this either. Since lists such as those in Chronicles appear to be based on Numbers 28-29 they would include such sabbaths as the Day of Atonement PLUS the the weekly sabbath as well. In other words, here the term sabbath would include all the sabbath-type appointed times, yearly, and weekly.

Each of these was spelled out in Numbers 28-29 and had associated sacrifices.

-------

In another of the summary lists in Ezekiel 45 we see that the weekly Sabbath is included. We can tell because the rest of the context spells out the elements, including reference to the weekly Sabbath:
Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.
Eze 46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Eze 46:2 The prince shall enter by the vestibule of the gate from outside, and shall take his stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.
Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.
Eze 46:4 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish.
Eze 46:5 And the grain offering with the ram shall be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs shall be as much as he is able, together with a hin of oil to each ephah.
The reference to six working days refers back to the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20, and makes clear it is the weekly Sabbath.
Moreover, note the close parallel to Col. 2
burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel:
You have food and drink offerings, which is likely the reference in Col. 2 to in regards to food and drink
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths
But you also have the purpose of the list spelled out in Ezekiel 45: "all the appointed times of the house of Israel"
The feasts, new moons and sabbaths are the appointed times of Israel. And Numbers 28-29 spells those out, and they include the weekly sabbath (with its prescribed sacrifices).
There is every reason to think that Paul is including the weekly sabbath, as an appointed time, in this list.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is a focused thread on one aspect of a critical text in the Sabbath discussion. Colossians 2:16 is an oft-cited Scripture in the Sabbath debate. It is a complicated text in a number of ways, but this thread is looking at one element--proposed parallel old testament lists.

To illustrate the issue this thread is examining I will re-post a quote from an article that was cited in a recent Sabbath discussion on the forum.

Sunday Is Not the Sabbath

If we believe we have to "honor the Sabbath day," why aren’t Catholics obliged to attend Mass on Saturday instead of Sunday?

www.catholic.com

Moreover, it is important to note how Paul uses the same division of “festivals” (annual holy days), “new moons” (monthly holy days), and “Sabbaths” (the weekly holy days) that the Old Testament uses in 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:12-13, 31:3; and elsewhere, when referencing Jewish holy days. Clearly, along with the yearly and monthly holy days—which no Christian today claims is binding upon believers in Christ—the Sabbath is included in what Paul calls a mere shadow.

The article notes that holy days are mentioned in 1 Chronicles, and 2 Chronicles, and "elsewhere." The general thrust of the argument is that previous scripture listings could help clarify the nature of the holy times discussed.

One of the key questions from an Adventist perspective is whether the sabbath term has reference to the "weekly" sabbath. Some Adventists indicate that it is talking about "yearly" sabbaths.

Examples of yearly sabbaths would be the Day of Atonement, Trumpets, etc.

This focused thread will examine the following questions:

- what OT texts list holy times?
- Are there key differences between the Col. 2 list and the OT lists which indicate Paul does not have these lists in mind?
- Do these OT texts have any clear reference to weekly or yearly sabbaths?

This is an issue that Adventists have examined at various times. The majority of Adventist commentators do not think that the text refers to the weekly Sabbaths.

The Catholic article already cited takes issue with this, noting a progression from Yearly (festival) to monthly (new moon) to weekly (sabbath)

One Adventist commentator spelled out a position similar to the quote from the Catholic article above. Samuele Bacchiocchi, in "From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity" said the following:

The Sabbath in Colossians 2:16. The sacred times prescribed by the false teachers are referred to as “a festival or a new moon or a sabbath–eortes he neomenia he sabbaton” (2:16). The unanimous consensus of commentators is that these three words represent a logical and progressive sequence (annual, monthly and weekly) as well as an exhaustive enumeration of the sacred times. This view is validated by the occurrence of these terms, in similar or reverse sequence, five times in the Septuagint and
several times in other literature. There is, however, an exceptional occurrence in Isaiah 1:13-14 where the “new moon” is found at the beginning of the enumeration rather than in the middle, but an exception does not invalidate a common usage.

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary interprets the “sabbaton–sabbath days” as a reference to the annual ceremonial sabbaths Appendix: Paul and the Law 339 and not to the weekly Sabbath (Lev. 23-6-8, 15, 16, 21, 24, 25, 27, 28, 37,38). It is a fact that both the Sabbath and the Day of Atonement in Hebrew are designated by the compound expression shabbath shabbathon, meaning “a sabbath of solemn rest” (Ex. 31:15; 35:2; Lev. 23:3,32; 16:31). But this phrase is rendered in the Septuagint by the compound Greek expression “sabbata sabbaton” which is different from the simple “sabbaton” found in Colossians 2:16. It is therefore linguistically impossible to interpret the latter as a reference to the Day of Atonement or to any other ceremonial sabbaths, since these are never designated simply as “sabbata.”

The cited commentary rests its interpretation, however, not on the grammatical and linguistic use of the word “sabbaton” but rather on a theological interpretation of the Sabbath as related to ‘‘shadow in Colossians 2:17. It is argued that “the weekly Sabbath is a memorial of an event at the beginning of earth’s history... hence the “sabbath days” Paul declares to be shadows pointing to Christ cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath.., but must indicate the ceremonial rest days that reach their realization in Christ and
His Kingdom.” To determine the meaning of a word exclusively by theological as-sumptions, rather than by linguistic or contextual evidences, is against the canons of Biblical hermeneutics. Moreover even the theological interpretation which the Adventist commentary gives to the Sabbath is hard to justify, since we have seen that the Sabbath can legitimately be regarded as the “shadow” or fitting symbol of the present and future blessing of salvation.

Meanwhile, two other Adventists responded (apparently independently, but with similar arguments), to the above yearly, monthly, weekly point. These were David Conklin on his website (David is a member of these forums, or at least was, though I can't seem to link his profile here for some reason), and Ron du Preez in his book Putting the Sabbath to Rest: A Scriptural Study of Colossians 2:16 . du Preez has been an Adventist professor and scholar, and a member of the Biblical Research Institute.

They argued that the weekly sabbath was not in view, and that the progression is not regarding yearly, monthly, weekly, but instead, based on OT parallel passages, referred to three categories of holy times:

-Feasts
-New Moons
-Sabbaths

They note that the term "feast" is in reference to the pilgrim feasts, correlating with the word "chag" in Hebrew. Some of the yearly appointed times were not feasts but solemn assemblies, so they would not be included here, but in the Sabbaths. This would include the trumpets, Day of Atonement, etc. They are appointed times, but not "chag" or feasts.

As such in their argument you would have a listing of (yearly) feasts, (monthly) new moons, and (yearly) solemn assemblies/sabbaths.

In other words, they argue that instead of imposing a notion on the text, of yearly, monthly, weekly, that instead these are divisions of types of appointed times.

I think it’s important to consider all scripture and not just one scripture without seeking for its true context, especially when trying to do away with a commandment of God that He personally wrote and He personally spoke and is kept in the Most Holy of His Temple which is also in heaven Rev 11:19.

God separated the weekly Sabbath from the annual sabbath(s) and there is a reason for that. The weekly Sabbath was part of God's perfect plan before sin Genesis 2:1-3 and points us back to the God of Creation and His sanctifying and creative power. God hallowed the Sabbath Exodus 20:11 and He identifies the Sabbath as My holy day Isaiah 58:13 and even if He didn't command man to also keep His Sabbath day holy we are not to profane God's holy things. Eze 22:26. We are made in the image of God to follow Him, not to do our own thing. There is no scripture that says God took back the seventh day Sabbath as His holy day. Instead Jesus kept the Sabbath and all of the commandments and is our example to follow. 1 John 2:6.

The Sabbath is one of His commandments written personally by God kept inside the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple and these are the works of God. Exodus 32:16. We cannot add or subtract to God’s commandments Deut 4:2 and once God blesses something like He did the Sabbath day, man cannot reverse Num 23:20 so we would need a thus saith the Lord to say we no longer need to keep this commandment of God. There is no such scripture in all of God’s Word, so who’s will is it that we forget the one commandment God said to Remember? It certainly is not God’s almost every scripture regarding the Sabbath from Creation to the New Heavens/New Earth about keeping the Sabbath holy has a thus saith the Lord.

The context is ordinances and if one backed up to Col 2:14 KJV, they would see this…

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The Sabbath is finger written by God Exo 31:18 not handwritten, it is holy and blessed which is not the definition for contrary and against and it is a commandment of God, which is not the same as an ordinance according to scripture Neh 9:13

Col 2:13-17 KJV is referring to the old sanctuary system which all pointed forward to Christ. Hebrews 9:9-12 Hebrews 10:1-10 It had to do with food and drink offerings, feast days and festivals and many of those were also called annual sabbath(s) which were ordinances Exodus 12:43 which all pointed to Jesus who became our Passover Lamb 1 Cor 5:7 who took away the sins of the world. Instead of sacrificing animals in NC Jesus is our perfect Sacrifice and High Priest and we can go directly to Him when we sin and have a change in heart. Sin is still the same as it as always been and is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4 and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to define the law that defines sin Romans 7:7. The Ten Commandments are just that, they came in a unit of Ten that God placed together ,no man can separate and cannot be edited because man is not above God and if we break one of these commandments we break them all and it is what we will be judged by. James 2:10-12.

Col 2:14-17 KJV doesn’t fit with the context of the weekly Sabbath commandment or reconcile with God’s Word in any way, yet people continue down this path for some strange reason. Jesus refutes this theory from His own Words saying the Sabbath would be kept by His followers decades after the Cross Matthew 24:20 and we see the apostles keeping every Sabbath decades after the Cross as they were commanded to observe everything Jesus commanded of them and the Sabbath will be kept in heaven for the saints for eternity Isaiah 66:22-23. The saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Rev 14:12 and the Sabbath is a commandment of God, blessed by God that no man can reverse. God just wants to spend time with His people on the day He set aside sanctified, blessed and made holy to do so. We cannot sanctify ourselves only God can Eze 20:12 yet people still try.

 

[tall73]

I think it’s important to consider all scripture and not just one scripture without seeking for its true context

Then you should love this thread, because it is looking not just at one Scripture, but the OT parallel passages that may inform the context of Colossians 2.

God separated the weekly Sabbath from the annual sabbath(s) and there is a reason for that. The weekly Sabbath was part of God's perfect plan before sin Genesis 2:1-3 and points us back to the God of Creation and His sanctifying and creative power. God hallowed the Sabbath Exodus 20:11 and He identifies the Sabbath as My holy day Isaiah 58:13 and even if He didn't command man to also keep His Sabbath day holy we are not to profane God's holy things. Eze 22:26. We are made in the image of God to follow Him, not to do our own thing. There is no scripture that says God took back the seventh day Sabbath as His holy day. Instead Jesus kept the Sabbath and all of the commandments and is our example to follow. 1 John 2:6

Yes, Jesus and Paul kept the Sabbath. And Jesus and Paul kept the Passover as well. Paul was even in a hurry to get back for the feast. And per Acts 21 the Jewish Believers were zealous for the whole law.

We also see regarding the feast of weeks:

Leviticus 23:21 And you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you. You shall do no customary work on it. It shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

It was holy, and a statute forever.

But that is beyond the scope of this thread, and we have discussed it before. You are selective in your holy forever statutes.

The context is ordinances and if one backed up to Col 2:14, they would see this…

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Actually most now recognize that to be about the handwritten certificate of debt, with its regulations, representing our sin, based on the use of the term in other contexts.

And this is in line with the context of verse 14 as well--"having forgiven you all trespasses" is continued by the clause "having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us".

It was our debt of sin that was against us. Jesus became sin for us and died on the cross.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Col 2:13:17 KJV is referring to the old sanctuary system which all pointed forward to Christ.

The sanctuary system that pointed to Christ was not "against" us!

Our sin was against us. Jesus didn't take away the law, but took away our sin, our certificate of debt, by paying it with His own life.

Sin is still the same as it as always been and is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4 and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to define the law that defines sin Romans 7:7. These came in a unit of Ten and cannot be edited because man is not above God and if we break one of these commandments we break them all and it is what we will be judged by. James 2:10-12.

There were many more than 10 commandments. Note that in Jesus sermon where He referenced "you have heard it said" in regards to adultery and murder he also referenced oaths, and eye for eye, etc.

You are selective. But in Acts 21 they were zealous for the whole law.

We cannot sanctify ourselves only God cam Eze 20:12 yet people still try.

You chose an odd text to make your point. that may say more than you want.

Ezekiel notes the specific people that sabbath was given to:

5 “Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the Lord your God.’ 6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands. 7 Then I said to them, ‘Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.’ 8 But they rebelled against Me and would not [a]obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ 9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

10 “Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’ 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths.

Note that the commandments He gave them, by which if a man does he shall live by them, are then followed up with the Sabbath--a sign.

The commandments one does and live are separated from the sign. And the sign is with Israel. This refers back to Exodus 31:

12 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies[b] you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

The sabbath was a sign, a covenant forever, with Israel. And in Acts 21 James and the Jewish believers in Christ, and Paul, were keeping it, along with the rest of the law.

So I see no reason to think it is done away with, but I also see it in its context.

The Sabbath is a memorial of creation and the redemption from Egypt that was a sign with God's covenant people, and which had associated sacrifices.

But that is all a bit off the focused topic here. So please address the OT parallel texts, which are the topic. If you want another generic Sabbath thread there are many of them.


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This post has been edited from the version that the Liturgist reacted to. The content from this original post is now in post 2, while the content here is to address the somewhat off-topic response to the above poster.

 

[BobRyan]

(Quotes Samuel Bacciocchi) The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary interprets the “sabbaton–sabbath days” as a reference to the annual ceremonial sabbaths Appendix: Paul and the Law 339 and not to the weekly Sabbath (Lev. 23-6-8, 15, 16, 21, 24, 25, 27, 28, 37,38). It is a fact that both the Sabbath and the Day of Atonement in Hebrew are designated by the compound expression shabbath shabbathon, meaning “a sabbath of solemn rest” (Ex. 31:15; 35:2; Lev. 23:3,32; 16:31). But this phrase is rendered in the Septuagint by the compound Greek expression “sabbata sabbaton” which is different from the simple “sabbaton” found in Colossians 2:16. It is therefore linguistically impossible to interpret the latter as a reference to the Day of Atonement or to any other ceremonial sabbaths, since these are never designated simply as “sabbata.”

(quotes Baccihocchi) The cited commentary rests its interpretation, however, not on the grammatical and linguistic use of the word “sabbaton” but rather on a theological interpretation of the Sabbath as related to ‘‘shadow in Colossians 2:17. It is argued that “the weekly Sabbath is a memorial of an event at the beginning of earth’s history... hence the “sabbath days” Paul declares to be shadows pointing to Christ cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath.., but must indicate the ceremonial rest days that reach their realization in Christ and
His Kingdom.”

Meanwhile, two other Adventists responded ..
They argued that the weekly sabbath was not in view, and that the progression is not regarding yearly, monthly, weekly, but instead, based on OT parallel passages, referred to three categories of holy times:

-Feasts
-New Moons
-Sabbaths

They note that the term "feast" is in reference to the pilgrim feasts, correlating with the word "chag" in Hebrew. Some of the yearly appointed times were not feasts but solemn assemblies, so they would not be included here, but in the Sabbaths. This would include the trumpets, Day of Atonement, etc. They are appointed times, but not "chag" or feasts.

As such in their argument you would have a listing of (yearly) feasts, (monthly) new moons, and (yearly) solemn assemblies/sabbaths.

In other words, they argue that instead of imposing a notion on the text, of yearly, monthly, weekly, that instead these are divisions of types of appointed times.

the shadows are given in sacrifice - where those sacrifices clearly are shadows/types of the sacrifice of Christ as 1 Cor 5 informs us regarding Passover.

There is no sacrifice at all in Gen 2:1-3 for the seventh day sanctified and set apart
no sacrifice at all for Ex 16 the seventh day Sabbath sanctified and set apart.
no sacrifice at all in the Sabbath commandment Ex 20:8-11 sanctified and set apart
no sacrifice mentioned at all for the Sabbath kept by all mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth -- Is 66:23
no sacrifice mentioned at all for the "every Sabbath" gospel preaching and worship services for both gentiles and Jews in Acts 18:4

===================================

This is a focused thread on one aspect of a critical text in the Sabbath discussion. Colossians 2:16 is an oft-cited Scripture in the Sabbath debate.

Col 2:16-17
16 Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

1. Galatians, Colossians, Ephesians etc are letters sent from Paul to gentile churches that also had some Jewish Christians attending.
2. In the NT we see gentiles in Sabbath services in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 "every Sabbath" Gospel preaching to both gentiles and Jews. etc.
3. the rapidly expanding Christian "sect" of the Jews was rapidly expanding via evangelism to be almost totally a gentile church over time.
4. In Acts 15 the debate over circumicising gentiles is resolved to some extent by the fact that the Christians were still meeting in these Jewish synagogue Sabbath services and so as James points out -- "Moses is read every Sabbath"

============ A popular story--

But one popular 'story' in modern times is that Christians were not meeting on Sabbath, but were meeting in their own group on week-day-1 - as Christians... a primarily gentile church in the case of asian/greek cities mentioned above.​

​

So what is going on in Col 2:16-17 ? Do we have one or two Jewish Christians meeting on week-day-1 with a bunch of gentile Christians - and these Jewish Christians are upset that week-day-1 for them is not the 7th day of the week. Why are the Jewish Christians choosing to worship on week-day-1 instead of the Sabbath - then supposedly slamming gentile Christians for being in church then instead of Sabbath? Why wouldn't Jewish Christians continue to meet on the Sabbath hearing the gospel preached "every Sabbath" as we see for both gentiles and Jews in Acts 18:4 - were that popular story true?​

============ story ends

It is far more likely that these are every-Sabbath worship services with gentiles and Jews where Paul is speaking about the problem of judging others for how they observe certain holy days in Lev 23. But as Col 2:17-22 point out the problem is not "judging in regard to scripture" but is primarily about "making stuff up".

16 Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Take care that no one keeps defrauding you of your prize by delighting in humility and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding firmly to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.​

​

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man? 23 These are matters which do have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and humility and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.​

 

[tall73]

There is no sacrifice at all in Gen 2:1-3 for the seventh day sanctified and set apart
no sacrifice at all for Ex 16 the seventh day Sabbath sanctified and set apart.

This is not a generic Sabbath thread. But I will respond to some of this, but remind you to address the focused topic of the OT parallell texts.

If you addressed such texts you would see that the weekly Sabbath is included in these texts spelling out the appointed times, as are the new moons and feasts.

You wish to limit it to only the yearly sabbaths, such as the Day of Atonement, etc. but the lists include the weekly as well. You have not addressed these texts, but they show that your imposed theological framework of the weekly sabbath not being a shadow because it does not point to Jesus' sacrifice is incorrect. They were included along with the other appointed times.

Numbers 28 shows both the New Moon and Sabbath have associated sacrifices, as do all the appointed times.

9 ‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— 10 this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.

11 ‘At the beginnings of your months you shall present a burnt offering to the Lord: two young bulls, one ram, and seven lambs in their first year, without blemish; 12 three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, for each bull; two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, for the one ram; 13 and one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour, mixed with oil, as a grain offering for each lamb, as a burnt offering of sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the Lord. 14 Their drink offering shall be half a hin of wine for a bull, one-third of a hin for a ram, and one-fourth of a hin for a lamb; this is the burnt offering for each month throughout the months of the year. 15 Also one kid of the goats as a sin offering to the Lord shall be offered, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.

Both the creation event and the redemption from Egypt (which came before Ex 16) are referenced in regards to the sign of the Sabbath with Israel.

Exodus 31:12 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies[ you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”


Deuteronomy 5:12 ‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

Ezekiel 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.
13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

He makes a distinction between the laws by which if a person does them they will live and the Sabbath, which was a sign with Israel of their sanctification, referring back to Ex. 31.

The first time we see people commanded to keep the Sabbath is in Exodus 16.

Exodus 16 was multiple weeks beyond slavery in Egypt, but the sabbath was introduced as a test in that chapter, to see if they would obey, and was a new concept. They had not kept the Sabbath for weeks already.

no sacrifice at all in the Sabbath commandment Ex 20:8-11 sanctified and set apart
no sacrifice mentioned at all for the Sabbath kept by all mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth -- Is 66:23

Sacrifices are spelled out for the Sabbath in Numbers 28.

And of course Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice.

Now I have no issue with James and the believers keeping the Sabbath in Acts 21, nor do I have an issue with the keeping of the Sabbath in the time referenced in Isaiah.

But the texts say it was a sign with Israel. And it was included in Number 28 with the other appointed times, with sacrifices. And Paul continues that listing of appointed times in Col. 2 and calls it a shadow.

Genesis does not say God gave a sabbath command in the garden. Moses notes that the rest in the garden was the basis of the sanctification of the Sabbath day, therefore God blessed the sabbath and hallowed it.

And when did God do that? The first time that such a command is referenced is Exodus 16, the next Exodus 20, and the context is clearly spelled out to be in terms referring to Israel, as a sign, and with sacrifices, as a statute forever.

no sacrifice mentioned at all for the "every Sabbath" gospel preaching and worship services for both gentiles and Jews in Acts 18:4

Nor for the every day preaching in the lecture hall of Tyrannus where they went next to accomplish the same goal of preaching Christ:

Acts 19:9
But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus

Of course they went to synagogues, which yes had both Jew and Gentiles. And of course Paul kept the Sabbath (and was eager to get back for the feast, and did not turn away the Jewish people of the diaspora from circumcision, etc.).

But this isn't a generic Sabbath thread. So be sure to comment on the OT parallels and their relation, or non-relation to Col. 2

 

[tall73]

Bob, you ought to clarify that when you quote and it says "tall73 said" but then include the green passage from Bacchiocchi, you are not in fact quoting me, but are quoting Bacchiocchi who was referenced for historical context.

I don't agree with a number of points Bacchiocchi made, including his notion of a progression from yearly to monthly to weekly.

 

[tall73]

============ A popular story--

But one popular 'story' in modern times is that Christians were not meeting on Sabbath, but were meeting in their own group on week-day-1 - as Christians... a primarily gentile church in the case of asian/greek cities mentioned above.​

​

We see from Acts that gentiles and Jews were often meeting in synagogues on Sabbath, where the Scriptures were read. Paul would begin his ministry in these locations, when available.

This allowed Paul to both reach out to Jewish attendees who would be familiar with Scripture, and to speak to God fearing gentiles who would also have some background already. When the gospel was rejected they would at times have to leave the synagogue and move to another venue:

For instance, in Corinth:

Acts 18:5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. 6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7 And he departed from there and entered the house of a certain man named Justus, one who worshiped God, whose house was next door to the synagogue. 8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

In Ephesus:

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 10 And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

In the case of Philippi there was no synagogue so Paul went to a place of prayer on the Sabbath.

Acts 16:12 and from there to Philippi, which is the foremost city of that part of Macedonia, a colony. And we were staying in that city for some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

The bretheren are indicated as gathered at the house of Lydia:

16:40 So they went out of the prison and entered the house of Lydia; and when they had seen the brethren, they encouraged them and departed.

We see reference in Troas to meeting on the first day of the week. This may well have been using Jewish reckoning where the first day of the week begins at sundown on our Saturday. So they may have been meeting Saturday night. It is also mentioned that Paul is leaving the next day so he goes later than usual, dialoguing.

Some point out the "on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread" sounds like a liturgical formula, suggesting a regular practice. This may have been the case. We don't know from Acts whether there was a synagogue present. If so they may have met in the synagogue for hearing the word And they may have followed that with a time for distinctive Christian teaching on Saturday after Sabbath, the early part of the first day by Jewish reckoning. Some ancient churches still have Saturday evening services which may hearken back to such a practice.

This particular meeting was a session with the apostle to convey specifically Christian teaching and answer their questions prior to leaving, which makes it harder to tell if this is indicating a regular practice, or a one-time special meeting.

Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

In any case churches did not only meet during the regular synagogue meetings as there had to be some time for Christian teaching apart from the main synagogue service, though that need not be limited to the first day.

In the case of Corinth, where there was a synagogue, but they eventually had to leave, we see references to the church in Corinth coming together in one place.

1 Cointhians 11:18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

and:

23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you. 26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Practice of Christian spiritual gifts, including toungues, prophecy, interpreting of prophecy, the Lord's supper, reciting teachings, etc. would be in a place where the church was all gathered, but not during the regular synagogue service. The synagogue service was a place where they could hear the Scriptures, reach out to to others for Christ, etc. So there was no reason to leave in those locales where they were not forced to by rejection.

We also know that some churches were meeting in houses, because letters mention it:

Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house.

Colossians 4:15 Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.

Philemon 1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To Philemon our beloved friend and fellow laborer, 2 to the beloved Apphia, Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house.

The churches meeting in homes become important to the thread topic. Philemon 1 tells us that a church met in the home of Philemon. The letter of Philemon appeals to Philemon to forgive, and release the slave Onesimus so that he may minister for the gospel.

And the epistle to the Colossians tells us that Onesimus, who was Philemon's slave, was one of the Colossians.

Colossians 4:7 Tychicus, a beloved brother, faithful minister, and fellow servant in the Lord, will tell you all the news about me. 8 I am sending him to you for this very purpose, that he may know your circumstances and comfort your hearts, 9 with Onesimus, a faithful and beloved brother, who is one of you. They will make known to you all things which are happening here.

Acchipus who is also a recipient of the letter of Philemon, along with the church, is also mentioned in Colossians:

16 Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea. 17 And say to Archippus, “Take heed to the ministry which you have received in the Lord, that you may fulfill it.”

Laodicea and Colossae were near, and had relations between one another. This text could mean that Archippus is ministering in Laodicea, or it could be a somewhat separate thought and he is in Colossae. We already saw that there was a house church meeting in Laodicea, but it was in the house of Nymphas. Philemon also has a church meeting in his home, and some think it was in Colossae.

Either way, house churches appear to be common in the area.

We don't see Colossae addressed in Paul's travels in Acts becuase at the time he writes the letter to the Coloassians he had never met them face to face. He has heard about the faith of the church in Colossae, and the related churches in Laodicea and Hierapolis

Colossians 1:5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; 7 as you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf, 8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. 13 For I bear him witness that he has a great zeal for you, and those who are in Laodicea, and those in Hierapolis.

Colossians 2:2 For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh

So we don't have as much detail about the situation as we do some of the churches described in Acts. But we do know they had some home churches. It is unclear whether there were synagogues that they had departed from, etc.

So what is going on in Col 2:16-17 ? Do we have one or two Jewish Christians meeting on week-day-1 with a bunch of gentile Christians - and these Jewish Christians are upset that week-day-1 for them is not the 7th day of the week. Why are the Jewish Christians choosing to worship on week-day-1 instead of the Sabbath - then supposedly slamming gentile Christians for being in church then instead of Sabbath? Why wouldn't Jewish Christians continue to meet on the Sabbath hearing the gospel preached "every Sabbath" as we see for both gentiles and Jews in Acts 18:4 - were that popular story true?​

============ story ends

Whether they were meeting in the synagogue or only in homes they would need to have times of distinctly Christian worship and teaching, such as were described in Corinth, despite their being a synagogue in town.

Those judging the Colossian believers could be Jewish people in the town, but could also be Judaizers, who thought that gentiles had to be circumcised and keep the whole law, which we see referenced in a number of places.

Given the reference to home churches in the region it is not certain that they were meeting in synagogues. But it wouldn't make much difference to the reading if they were.

But as Col 2:17-22 point out the problem is not "judging in regard to scripture" but is primarily about "making stuff up".

16 Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Take care that no one keeps defrauding you of your prize by delighting in humility and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding firmly to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.​

​

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man? 23 These are matters which do have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and humility and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.​

Paul lists a number of things that could cause the new church to be distracted from Christ:

Colossians 2:4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.

Human philosophy:

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Worship of angels

18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

Aestheticism

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

But in the middle of that list he includes discussion of circumcision, feasts, new moons and sabbaths. They are in the same category of things that they need not be distracted by.

They were circumcised in Christ, not with hands:

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Christ is the body and the feasts, new moons and sabbaths are the shadows.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

So whether it is local Jewish critics, or Judaizers who traveled about, they didn't need to worry about the judgments of those groups. Jesus is what they need, and they should not be concerned about these distractions.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Then you should love this thread, because it is looking not just at one Scripture, but the OT parallel passages that may inform the context of Colossians 2.




Yes, Jesus and Paul kept the Sabbath. And Jesus and Paul kept the Passover as well. Paul was even in a hurry to get back for the feast. And per Acts 21 the Jewish Believers were zealous for the whole law.

Yes Paul did, but it never mentions sacrificing animals on the Passover.

The sanctuary system that pointed to Christ was not "against" us!

Never did I say it was, you are using my post out of context. I said the Sabbath, which God said is holy and blessed is not the definition to contrary and against.

Our sin was against us. Jesus didn't take away the law, but took away our sin, our certificate of debt, by paying it with His own life.

Of course Jesus didn’t take away the law, which includes the Sabbath commandment. Law is what defines sin. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7. Taking away the law is taking away sin and sadly, there is sin everywhere.

There were many more than 10 commandments. Note that in Jesus sermon where He referenced "you have heard it said" in regards to adultery and murder he also referenced oaths, and eye for eye, etc.

I never said there was no other commandments aside from the Ten. The Ten are different through as God separated them from all other laws, they are the only ones inside the ark of the Covenant, the only commandments He did not leave up to man to write, they are personally written by God and sad so many people who claim to be christians attack God’s holy commandments. Jesus tells us not to break or teach others to break quoting right from this unit of Ten Matthew 5:19. Jesus kept them and told us to, my faith is in Jesus.

You chose an odd text to make your point. that may say more than you want.

Ezekiel notes the specific people that sabbath was given to:

5 “Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the Lord your God.’ 6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands. 7 Then I said to them, ‘Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.’ 8 But they rebelled against Me and would not [a]obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ 9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

10 “Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’ 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths.

Note that the commandments He gave them, by which if a man does he shall live by them, are then followed up with the Sabbath--a sign.

The Sabbath is a sign between God and His people , I can only speak for myself but I want to be one of God’s people. Israel was a name God gave to identify His people. God’s covenant is made with the house of Israel Hebrews 8:10 and we are grafted in through faith. Gal 3:26-28 One God, one people and God’s people keep God’s commandments through faith. Rev 14:12

The Sabbath is a memorial of creation and the redemption from Egypt that was a sign with God's covenant people, and which had associated sacrifices.

No sacrifices at Creation Gen 2:1-3, no sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:8-11, no sacrifices after the Cross Acts 18:4, or in heaven Isaiah 66:23. The Sabbath is not about sacrifices it is about the day to honor God according to His holy Word Isaiah 58:13. Did they have sacrifices on the Sabbath after the fall of man, yes they had sacrifices daily because people sin daily, just like we should pray daily to Jesus for our sins and sin is breaking God’s law which includes the Sabbath commandment. Romans 7:7

But that is all a bit off the focused topic here. So please address the OT parallel texts, which are the topic. If you want another generic Sabbath thread there are many of them.

The context you are trying to make is the Sabbath commandment is nailed at the cross. Jesus rebukes this Matthew 24:20, Isaiah 66:22-23 As does the context Col 2:13-19 KJV My faith is in Jesus who kept the Sabbath and is our example to follow. 1 John 2:6

 

[tall73]

In another of the summary lists in Ezekiel 45 we see that the weekly Sabbath is included. We can tell because the rest of the context spells out the elements, including reference to the weekly Sabbath:

Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.

Eze 46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Eze 46:2 The prince shall enter by the vestibule of the gate from outside, and shall take his stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.
Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.
Eze 46:4 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish.
Eze 46:5 And the grain offering with the ram shall be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs shall be as much as he is able, together with a hin of oil to each ephah.


The reference to six working days refers back to the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20, and makes clear it is the weekly Sabbath.

Moreover, note the close parallel to Col. 2

burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel:

You have food and drink offerings, which is likely the reference in Col. 2 to in regards to food and drink

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths

But you also have the purpose of the list spelled out in Ezekiel 45: "all the appointed times of the house of Israel"

The feasts, new moons and sabbaths are the appointed times of Israel. And Numbers 28-29 spells those out, and they include the weekly sabbath (with its prescribed sacrifices).

There is every reason to think that Paul is including the weekly sabbath, as an appointed time, in this list.

 

[tall73]

Yes Paul did, but it never mentions sacrificing animals on the Passover.

Paul did not object to sacrifices:

Acts 21:23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them.


The Jewish believers saw Jesus as the fulfillment of the law, but were zealous for the whole law. And they had to be to reach out to Jewish people. They realized the sacrifices pointed to Jesus, but still offered sacrifices in accordance with the law, as it pointed to Christ.

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law

Never did I say it was, you are using my post out of context, which is why I typically don’t respond to a lot of your threads. I said the Sabbath, which God said is holy and blessed is not the definition to contrary and against.

What was contrary and against was our record of sin.

The Sabbath is a sign between God and His people , I can only speak for myself but I want to be one of God’s people. Israel was a name God gave to identify His people. God’s covenant is made with the house of Israel Hebrews 8:10 and we are grafted in through faith. Gal 3:26-28 One God, one people and God’s people keep God’s commandments. Rev 14:12

No sacrifices at Creation Gen 2:1-3, no sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:8-11, no sacrifices after the Cross Acts 18:4, or in heaven Isaiah 66:23. The Sabbath is not about sacrifices it is about the day to honor God according to His holy Word Isaiah 58:13. Did they have sacrifices on the Sabbath after the fall of man, yes they had sacrifices daily because people sin daily, just like we should pray daily to Jesus for our sins and sin is breaking God’s law which includes the Sabbath commandment. Romans 7:7

According to Numbers 28 the Sabbath involved sacrifices. And why shouldn't it? Part of the Sabbath per Deuteronomy was redemption.

The context you are trying to make is the Sabbath commandment is nailed at the cross.

You would have a hard time finding that in my statement. I said our record of sin was nailed to the cross. And I noted Paul was keeping the Sabbath long after the cross, as were all those in Jerusalem who were zealous for the law.

My faith is in Jesus who kept the Sabbath and is our example to follow.

Jesus kept the Passover as well. It was an everlasting ordinance.

Exodus 12:14 ‘So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance.

Do you follow His example in that as well? In Acts 21 the Jewish believers in Christ were zealous for the law, not selective.

Now please speak to the focused topic of the thread, which are the OT parallel passages.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

What was contrary and against was our record of sin.

Agreed

According to Numbers 28 the Sabbath involved sacrifices. And why shouldn't it? Part of the Sabbath per Deuteronomy was redemption.

This was previously addressed…

No sacrifices at Creation Gen 2:1-3, no sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:8-11, no sacrifices after the Cross Acts 18:4, or in heaven Isaiah 66:23. The Sabbath is not about sacrifices it is about the day to honor God according to His holy Word Isaiah 58:13. Did they have sacrifices on the Sabbath after the fall of man, yes they had sacrifices daily because people sin daily, just like we should pray daily to Jesus for our sins and sin is breaking God’s law which includes the Sabbath commandment. Romans 7:7

You would have a hard time finding that in my statement. I said our record of sin was nailed to the cross. And I noted Paul was keeping the Sabbath long after the cross, as were all those in Jerusalem who were zealous for the law.

Glad to hear you do not think the Sabbath commandment was nailed to the cross and I agree. God’s people keep God’s commandments through faith and love. Romans 3:31 Rev 14:12, 1 John 5:3

 

[BobRyan]

Tall73 presents the Catholic case against an unbent Sabbath commandment (one un-edited by tradition) as follows

To illustrate the issue this thread is examining I will re-post a quote from an article that was cited in a recent Sabbath discussion on the forum.

Sunday Is Not the Sabbath

If we believe we have to "honor the Sabbath day," why aren’t Catholics obliged to attend Mass on Saturday instead of Sunday?

www.catholic.com

Moreover, it is important to note how Paul uses the same division of “festivals” (annual holy days), “new moons” (monthly holy days), and “Sabbaths” (the weekly holy days) that the Old Testament uses in 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:12-13, 31:3; and elsewhere, when referencing Jewish holy days. Clearly, along with the yearly and monthly holy days—which no Christian today claims is binding upon believers in Christ—the Sabbath is included in what Paul calls a mere shadow.

The article notes that holy days are mentioned in 1 Chronicles, and 2 Chronicles, and "elsewhere." The general thrust of the argument is that previous scripture listings could help clarify the nature of the holy times discussed.

The Adventist position is that the seventh-day Sabbath was not given as a shadow of the cross in Gen 2:1-3, or in Ex 16 or in Ex 20:8-11 such that in all three cases it was not "given in sacrifice and offerings" when given, when defined, when created. It is a memorial of an even prior to sin.

Adventists indicate that it is talking about "yearly" sabbaths.

Examples of yearly sabbaths would be the Day of Atonement, Trumpets, etc.

This focused thread will examine the following questions:

- what OT texts list holy times?
- Are there key differences between the Col. 2 list and the OT lists which indicate Paul does not have these lists in mind?
- Do these OT texts have any clear reference to weekly or yearly sabbaths?

This is an issue that Adventists have examined at various times. The majority of Adventist commentators do not think that the text refers to the weekly Sabbaths.

The issue in Colossians 2 is not to condemn the weekly Sabbath or even the yearly festivals - rather it is against "judging others" just as we see in Matt 7 before the cross event even happens at all. A "do not judge others" statement that in no way deleted one of God's commandments before or after the cross would not delete the Sabbath.

The Catholic article already cited takes issue with this, noting a progression from Yearly (festival) to monthly (new moon) to weekly (sabbath)

The catholic argument is not against the TEN, nor is it for just nine-of-ten. Rather it is for a bent Sabbath where all TEN still apply yet one is "bent".

"a position" that I am pretty sure Tall73 also does not favor

CCC Catholic Catechism​

​

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; 28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature,...​

www.catholiceducation.org​

​

"While the Sabbath commemorated God's day of rest during the seven-day creation account of Genesis, it was also sacred because of what God has done for His people when He liberated them from slavery in Egypt: "For remember that you too were once slaves in Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you from there with His strong hand and outstretched arm. That is why the Lord, your God, has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day" (Dt 5:15). Therefore, the Sabbath was not only one day of rest and refreshment for everyone, being mindful of the many blessings received through creation, but also a day of remembering the covenant He had made with His people through the Passover sacrifice and the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai. The Sabbath was indeed the Day of the Lord. For Christians the "Sabbath" rest was transferred to the first day of the week — Sunday,"​

another example of 'edit' - rather than "delete"

​

Sabbath vs. Sunday Statements by the Catholic Church​

​

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?​

​

Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50​

Catholic Catechism -- CCC

" 2172 God's action is the model for human action. If God "rested and was refreshed" on the seventh day, man ought to "rest" and should let others especially the poor, "be refreshed." the Sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is the day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.​

​

" 2173 the Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the Sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of the day. He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: ' the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.' with compassion, Christ declares the Sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing. The Sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God. ' the son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.' "​

Dies Domini is a papal encyclical on the subject of Sunday and how it is regarded by tradition to be a holy day rooted in the 10 commandments as a continuation of the 4th commandment (numbered 3 by Roman Catholics).

​

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...nts/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html​

​

Dies Domini pt 11 ​

​

"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".​

​

Dies Domini pt 13 -​

​

"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.​

​

Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."​

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic church then argues that their "bent Sabbath" idea is not sustainable - 'sola scriptura'


“The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

​

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...​

​

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...​

​

“nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..tha is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”​

​

(I suspect Tall73 may actually agree on most of what they are saying in this quote above - as do I)

 

[BobRyan]

First off Bob, you ought to clarify that when you quote and it says "tall73 said" but then include the green passage from Bacchiocchi,

The quote system here on CF does that - I have edited to show you are quoting Bacchiocchi at certain points in my post for clarification.

 

[Freth]

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy..."

I'm wondering what caused the "Christian church" to think that the first day of the week had been made double holy over the Sabbath commandment. Could it be... tradition?

Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

 

[BobRyan]

the shadows are given in sacrifice - where those sacrifices clearly are shadows/types of the sacrifice of Christ as 1 Cor 5 informs us regarding Passover.

There is no sacrifice at all in Gen 2:1-3 for the seventh day sanctified and set apart
no sacrifice at all for Ex 16 the seventh day Sabbath sanctified and set apart.
no sacrifice at all in the Sabbath commandment Ex 20:8-11 sanctified and set apart
no sacrifice mentioned at all for the Sabbath kept by all mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth -- Is 66:23
no sacrifice mentioned at all for the "every Sabbath" gospel preaching and worship services for both gentiles and Jews in Acts 18:4

This is not a generic Sabbath thread. But I will respond to some of this, but remind you to address the focused topic of the OT parallell texts.

as noted in one of my prior posts - Col 2 is not about condemning the weekly Sabbath OR condemning the yearly ones - it is about not judging others just as we see before the cross - under the OT system - in Matt 7.

What is more in Rom 14 Paul defends all of the OT Lev 23 annual feasts saying one man observes one of them above the others while another observes them all and that neither is to be condemned.

Paul's balancing statement on that is in Gal 4 where he condemns even one observance of a pagan holy day.

Exodus 16 was multiple weeks beyond slavery in Egypt,

And has no animal sacrifice

but the sabbath was introduced as a test

Sabbath is introduced in Gen 2:1-3 and we are reminded of that in Ex 20:11. Even your RCC sources point to the Sabbath as coming from Eden and not from Ex 16.

They had not kept the Sabbath for weeks already.

Your inference noted - but not sustained in the text.

The text only informs us that the manna-system had not been in place before - it does not tell us that they did not keep the Sabbath from Egypt to Sinai given that their "observance" in Ex 16 was to rest and they had rested after the Exodus waiting to cross the Red Sea.

Sacrifices are spelled out for the Sabbath in Numbers 28.

Which is after the Ex 20 event, after the Ex 16 event and after being informed in Ex 20:11 that the Gen 2:1-3 event alone established the Sabbath as a holy day set apart.

Now I have no issue with James and the believers keeping the Sabbath in Acts 21, nor do I have an issue with the keeping of the Sabbath in the time referenced in Isaish.

Isaiah 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" -- so much for "Sabbath ended at the cross" ideas.

Is 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping
Act 13 - it is specifically gentiles that ask to have more gospel preaching scheduled for "the NEXT Sabbath" rather than "tomorrow - week-day-1"

But you seem to have an issue with who the text says God gave the Sabbath to in the first place

Your own Catholic sources say it was given to mankind.
Jesus said it was "made for mankind - not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27
Is 66 which you say you have no problem with has all mankind keeping Sabbath for all eternity.

Genesis does not say God gave a sabbath command in the garden.

Your own Catholic sources admit it.
God says it in Ex 20:11
Jesus says it Mark 2:27 referencing them making of the Sabbath and the making of mankind which is Gen 2:1-3

Moses notes that the rest in the garden was the basis of the sanctification of the Sabbath day

Which is a problem for those claiming that Gen 2:1-3 did not set the Sabbath apart to be kept holy.

, therefore God blessed the sabbath and hallowed it.

And when did God do that? The first time that such a command is referenced is Exodus 16, the next Exodus 20,

and of course no text at all about "do not take God's name in vain" prior to Ex 20.

And your point?

 

[tall73]

the shadows are given in sacrifice - where those sacrifices clearly are shadows/types of the sacrifice of Christ as 1 Cor 5 informs us regarding Passover.

Bob, please explain with Scripture how the new moon points to Jesus' sacrifice. And also explain why you do not keep it now if it is also mentioned in Isaiah

no sacrifice mentioned at all for the Sabbath kept by all mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth -- Is 66:23

But Bob, how can that be when the new moon is kept there also?

Isaiah 66:22“For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

 

[tall73]

The issue in Colossians 2 is not to condemn the weekly Sabbath or even the yearly festivals - rather it is against "judging others" just as we see in Matt 7 before the cross event even happens at all. A "do not judge others" statement that in no way deleted one of God's commandments before or after the cross would not delete the Sabbath.

You may want to speak more specifically to the thread Bob. Whatever is in the list is a shadow. The OT parallel passages include the weekly sabbath.

The reason for not judging is that they ARE shadows.

Now we agree on this point. They were not to judge people in that regard. We know from various texts the Jewish believers were keeping the whole law, and that included the Sabbath. We know Paul kept the Sabbath. I rather imagine a fair number of gentiles may have even kept some of these appointed times. But it was not an issue to judge regarding because they were shadows.

The catholic argument is not against the TEN, nor is it for just nine-of-ten. Rather it is for a bent Sabbath where all TEN still apply yet one is "bent".

"a position" that I am pretty sure Tall73 also does not favor

Agreed, I do not favor the Catholic position. Though the total document of Dies Domini makes it a bit more nuanced than just the aspects referenced in your quotes.


I do not think Sunday is a Sabbath. I think the Sabbath is still the Sabbath. I do think they continued to meet in the synagogue where the Scriptures were read until they were put out, as is alluded to in John, and seen at times in Acts. We find Paul seeking out Christians in the synagogues when he is persecuting them.

I do think it is was a sign with Israel of God their Creator, and God their redeemer, and the One who sanctifies them. And I do think that it was included in the shadows, and the OT parallel support that.

I do think some keep it to the Lord and have a blessing in doing so. And I would note both Col. 2 and Romans 14 indicate that it is not a matter of judging. Romans 14 indicates those who observe do so to the Lord.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6a He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

 

[tall73]

The Catholic church then argues that their "bent Sabbath" idea is not sustainable - 'sola scriptura'


“The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

​

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...​

​

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...​

​

“nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..tha is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”​

​

(I suspect Tall73 may actually agree on most of what they are saying in this quote above - as do I)

I agree with the aspect that there is no Scripture indicating Sunday as a Sabbath day of rest.