Focused discussion--Are the Sabbaths of Col 2 weekly or yearly?

tall73 · Dec 12, 2008

I am asking that we consider one very specific topic in this thread--which sabbaths are being discussed in Col. 2:16?

I am not necessarily even interested in this thread in the overall interpretation of the passage, or the meaning of meat, drink etc. I am just wanting to try, if possible, to determine whether the sabbaths in col. 2 are weekly or yearly.

In the course of looking at that aspect there may be some interpretive work of the passage, context, etc., and that is fine. But please keep the topic on track. The main goal is to see what kind of Sabbath is indicated.

This is not a general debate about whether the Sabbath is to be kept or not. Save that for another thread please.

tall73 · Dec 12, 2008

I personally have held both positions at different points in my life. Currently I believe the text is talking about the weekly Sabbath.

Here is the Greek for the sentence:

Col 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων,

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Here are the reasons for my current position.

a. The term σαββατων, in the form it appears in Col. 2 can be used for the weekly sabbath. Notice for instance its use in the commandment itself:

Exo 20:8 μνήσθητι τὴν ἡμέραν τῶν σαββάτων ἁγιάζειν αὐτήν.
Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

b. The Yearly, Monthly, Weekly progression shows that the weekly Sabbath is in mind. There is no need to mention the yearly again as the "feast" takes in the yearly, ceremonial sabbaths.

So you have:

Yearly-feasts, (including the ceremonial Sabbaths)
Monthly-New Moon
Weekly-Sabbath

c. The term for feast in Col. 2 is ἑορτῆς.

Col 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων,

That term is used in Lev. 23 for all of the holy days of the Lord, including the ceremonial sabbaths:

Lev 23:4 "These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them.

Lev 23:4 Αὗται αἱ ἑορταὶ τῷ κυρίῳ, κληταὶ ἅγιαι, ἃς καλέσετε αὐτὰς ἐν τοῖς καιροῖς αὐτῶν.

The text then goes on to lists the holy days, including the cermonial sabbaths. Therefore in the text in Col. the ceremonial sabbaths are included in the term for feast and the weekly sabbath is indicated by the term σαββάτων.

jorgfe · Dec 12, 2008

This is a great study! Thank you for all your hard work.

Gilbert

Restin · Dec 12, 2008

tall73 said:
I am not necessarily even interested in this thread in the overall interpretation of the passage, or the meaning of meat, drink etc. I am just wanting to try, if possible, to determine whether the sabbaths in col. 2 are weekly or yearly.

All sabbath days are only a 'shadow of things to come' (v17), so I don't think the sabbaths of/in Col 2 applies to either weekly or yearly.....OR.....it applies to both weekly and yearly!

Beyond that, v21-23 describes what is going to 'perish' --- the commandments and doctrines of men, which includes the 'shadow of things to come' -- when the real thing comes, the 'shadow' ceases to exist!

Restin

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2008

Yearly feast days of Lev 23 are being referenced since they are the "predictive" Sabbaths -- the shaddows pointing forward to an event "to be fulfilled". As vs 17 of Col 2 point out "shaddows of things to come" -- this is the role of "predictive laws" -- the types given to point to some future event.

And so we have in 1 Cor 5 "Christ our Passover has been slain".

The "prescriptive law" of the Ten commandments contains a "memorial Sabbath" that looks back to Christ our Creator's work in creating mankind. This idea of "looking back" to derive imperative for worship continues as we see in Rev 14.

Interestingly Rev 14 continues that "worship him our creator" concept saying "Worship Him who made...".

It is interesting that Matthew Henry, John Wesley, Adam Clarke and D.L Moody appear to conclude that this is not the moral law -- but rather the ceremonial law ending at the cross.

However they also seem to get the point about the "certificate of debt" being that which is the condemnation of the moral law -- the debt that Christ paid for us.

All very interesting.

in Christ,

Bob

tall73 · Dec 12, 2008

BobRyan said:
Yearly feast days of Lev 23 are being referenced since they are the "predictive" Sabbaths -- the shaddows pointing forward to an event "to be fulfilled". As vs 17 of Col 2 point out "shaddows of things to come" -- this is the role of "predictive laws" -- the types given to point to some future event.

The Sabbath stood for both a memorial of creation and of redemption. The Deuteronomy version of the commandment commemorated release from Egypt.

Moreover in Hebrews the fulfillment of God's rest was the rest of salvation which we enter into "today" and will be fully realized in the new earth.

But a larger problem for your view is that the feasts are clearly already referenced earlier in the verse.

A feast a newmoon or a sabbath.

yearly monthly weekly

The term for feast is the very term used to describe everything in Lev. 23.

And so we have in 1 Cor 5 "Christ our Passover has been slain".''

Indeed, and we also have a forward looking application of the passover yet to come:

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

However the passover is clearly included in the yearly items under the heading of "feast".

The sabbath also looks forward
It is interesting that Matthew Henry, John Wesley, Adam Clarke and D.L Moody appear to conclude that this is not the moral law -- but rather the ceremonial law ending at the cross.

However they also seem to get the point about the "certificate of debt" being that which is the condemnation of the moral law -- the debt that Christ paid for us.

Are you now referring to verse 14? That is outside the scope of this particular study, other than as a possible aid in understanding the overall thrust, but I would say the evidence is on the side of the certificate of debt view--Jesus forgave us all our sins.

JonMiller · Dec 12, 2008

Sometimes things are repeated to reinforce?

And on the other subject, how are we sinners without the law? (I don't mean the law as was handed to Moses, Paul and others have already pointed out that it is the same law that people naturally follow (some parts better then others, and most not the Sabbath)).

I had been holding it back because I wanted to see what people would post. I am not a scholar of the greek/etc.

But I really love the Sabbath, just as a break from work. All the rest of the week I am working (or doing something else that needs doing) or feeling guilty about not working. Only on the Sabbath hours can I take a guilt free break from my work. And that is important to me. Also, I am not as good as some of the people here with Bible study and praise, I find that having a weekly reminder to be very important (and it negatively effects things when I miss, which is too often). I do admit that for both of these things, the day doesn't seem to matter, Sunday would work just as well as Saturday.

JM

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2008

Well - just as an example -

Adam Clarke –

Col 2:16-17

Verse 16
Let no man-judge you in meat, or in drink

The apostle speaks here in reference to some particulars of the hand-writing of ordinances, which had been taken away, viz., the distinction of meats and drinks, what was clean and what unclean, according to the law; and the necessity of observing certain holydays or festivals, such as the new moons and particular sabbaths, or those which should be observed with more than ordinary solemnity; all these had been taken out of the way and nailed to the cross, and were no longer of moral obligation.
There is no intimation here that the Sabbath was done away, or that its moral use was superseded, by the introduction of Christianity
I have shown elsewhere that, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is a command of perpetual obligation, and can never be superseded but by the final termination of time. As it is a type of that rest which remains for the people of God, of an eternity of bliss, it must continue in full force till that eternity arrives; for no type ever ceases till the antitype be come. Besides, it is not clear that the apostle refers at all to the Sabbath in this place, whether Jewish or Christian; his σαββατων, of sabbaths or weeks, most probably refers to their feasts of weeks, of which much has been said in the notes on the Pentateuch.

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2008

Here is another example -

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

Col 2:16

16. therefore--because ye are complete in Christ, and God in Him has dispensed with all subordinate means as essential to acceptance with Him.

meat . . . drink--Greek, "eating . . . drinking" (Ro 14:1-17). Pay no regard to any one who sits in judgment on you as to legal observances in respect to foods.

holyday--a feast yearly. Compare the three, 1Ch 23:31.

new moon--monthly.

the sabbath--Omit "THE," which is not in the Greek (compare Note, see on Ga 4:10). "SABBATHS" (not "the sabbaths") of the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles have come to an end with the Jewish services to which they belonged (Le 23:32, 37-39).

The weekly sabbath rests on a more permanent foundation, having been instituted in Paradise to commemorate the completion of creation in six days. Le 23:38 expressly distinguished "the sabbath of the Lord" from the other sabbaths. A positive precept is right because it is commanded, and ceases to be obligatory when abrogated; a moral precept is commanded eternally, because it is eternally right. If we could keep a perpetual sabbath, as we shall hereafter, the positive precept of the sabbath, one in each week, would not be needed. Heb 4:9, "rests," Greek, "keeping of sabbath" (Isa 66:23). But we cannot, since even Adam, in innocence, needed one amidst his earthly employments; therefore the sabbath is still needed and is therefore still linked with the other nine commandments, as obligatory in the spirit, though the letter of the law has been superseded by that higher spirit of love which is the essence of law and Gospel alike (Ro 13:8-10).[/font]

tall73 · Dec 12, 2008

Bob,

Clarke himself says that the Sabbath points forward to the rest to come. Remember the text is speaking of shadows of things to come.

But Clarke really is not on your side in any case. Notice what he says about Rev. 1:

Verse 10. I was in the Spirit] That is, I received the Spirit of prophecy, and was under its influence when the first vision was exhibited.
The Lord's day] The first day of the week, observed as the Christian Sabbath, because on it Jesus Christ rose from the dead; therefore it was called the Lord's day, and has taken place of the Jewish Sabbath throughout the Christian world.

He thought that Sunday took over the Sabbath rest.

As it is a type of that rest which remains for the people of God, of an eternity of bliss, it must continue in full force till that eternity arrives; for no type ever ceases till the antitype be come.

If we follow this advice then you should still be keeping the feast of booths ,etc.

As a product of his time he thought Sunday was a binding Christian sabbath which is the reason for him allowing it to continue.

Adventtruth · Dec 12, 2008

tall73 said:
I am asking that we consider one very specific topic in this thread--which sabbaths are being discussed in Col. 2:16?

I am not necessarily even interested in this thread in the overall interpretation of the passage, or the meaning of meat, drink etc. I am just wanting to try, if possible, to determine whether the sabbaths in col. 2 are weekly or yearly.

In the course of looking at that aspect there may be some interpretive work of the passage, context, etc., and that is fine. But please keep the topic on track. The main goal is to see what kind of Sabbath is indicated.

This is not a general debate about whether the Sabbath is to be kept or not. Save that for another thread please.

Though it very obvious that a good reading of the chapter will uncover that the author is speaking of the whole Mosaic law by his comparison of what we have in Christ, with the taking away of law and the deceptions of men through false teachings, the verse 16 passage I believe is a reference not only to all other sabbaths, but also to the weekly sabbath as well. Many of the holy days where also associated with sabbaths.

AT

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2008

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Yearly feast days of Lev 23 are being referenced since they are the "predictive" Sabbaths -- the shaddows pointing forward to an event "to be fulfilled". As vs 17 of Col 2 point out "shaddows of things to come" -- this is the role of "predictive laws" -- the types given to point to some future event.

Tall

The Sabbath stood for both a memorial of creation and of redemption. The Deuteronomy version of the commandment commemorated release from Egypt.

Moreover in Hebrews the fulfillment of God's rest was the rest of salvation which we enter into "today" and will be fully realized in the new earth.

But a larger problem for your view is that the feasts are clearly already referenced earlier in the verse.

A feast a newmoon or a sabbath.

yearly monthly weekly

The term for feast is the very term used to describe everything in Lev. 23.

1. It would be difficult to make that case that in Gen 2:1-3 when the Sabbath was "made holy" it was to tell Adam about salvation from sin.

2. Paul argues "let no one judge you" and Christ also argues in Matt 7 "judge not that you be not judged" - Pre-cross. This is no change.

3. I am not arguing that people should judge others regarding Sabbath - God alone determines that sin is transgression of His Law and He alone judges in that regard. We do nothing but choose individually to keep it or ignore it.

4.
In Lev 23 we see both annual feast days that are not Sabbaths (days of holy convocation) and those that are Sabbaths. (Passover and the feast of Unleavened bread being a good example).

in Christ,

Bob

Adventtruth · Dec 12, 2008

BobRyan said:
1. It would be difficult to make that case that in Gen 2:1-3 when the Sabbath was "made holy" it was to tell Adam about salvation from sin.

I agree. We have no proof that God even said one word to Adam about the sabbath.

2. Paul argues "let no one judge you" and Christ also argues in Matt 7 "judge not that you be not judged" - Pre-cross. This is no change.

But you have left off the context. Paul is infering that they where not obligated to do those things contained under the old covenant.

3. I am not arguing that people should judge others regarding Sabbath - God alone determines that sin is transgression of His Law and He alone judges in that regard. We do nothing but choose individually to keep it or ignore it.

I agree.

AT

tall73 · Dec 12, 2008

holyday

Click to expand...

--a feast yearly. Compare the three, 1Ch 23:31.

They overlook the term εορται in Lev. 23. All of those things were holy days designated by the word for feast here, including the day of atonement and the feast of tabernacles.

the sabbath--Omit "THE," which is not in the Greek (compare Note, see on Ga 4:10). "SABBATHS" (not "the sabbaths") of the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles have come to an end with the Jewish services to which they belonged (Le 23:32, 37-39).

See above

The weekly sabbath rests on a more permanent foundation, having been instituted in Paradise to commemorate the completion of creation in six days. Le 23:38 expressly distinguished "the sabbath of the Lord" from the other sabbaths. A positive precept is right because it is commanded, and ceases to be obligatory when abrogated; a moral precept is commanded eternally, because it is eternally right. If we could keep a perpetual sabbath, as we shall hereafter, the positive precept of the sabbath, one in each week, would not be needed. Heb 4:9, "rests," Greek, "keeping of sabbath" (Isa 66:23). But we cannot, since even Adam, in innocence, needed one amidst his earthly employments; therefore the sabbath is still needed and is therefore still linked with the other nine commandments, as obligatory in the spirit, though the letter of the law has been superseded by that higher spirit of love which is the essence of law and Gospel alike (Ro 13:8-10).

Actually by their own definition the sabbath was a "positive" precept which was instituted at one point in time in commemoration. And like the passover which pointed back to an event (Exodus) and pointed forward, so the Sabbath points back to TWO events (creation and redemption from Egypt) and forward to the eternal rest and the rest of salvation.

And as to it having been instituted in the garden, there is no command whatsoever in the garden. God's rest was not expressed as a command to people for a weekly memorial until Exodus. We see no one at all observing it until it was then given to Israel. And when He did give it to Israel it was as a sign with Israel:

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

tall73 · Dec 12, 2008

JonMiller said:
Sometimes things are repeated to reinforce?

Notice the parallel:

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

It is a listing of holy times.

tall73 · Dec 12, 2008

BobRyan said:
1. It would be difficult to make that case that in Gen 2:1-3 when the Sabbath was "made holy" it was to tell Adam about salvation from sin.

Indeed, it would be difficult to make the case that it stood for redemption from Egypt too. But it did.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

There was no giving at all in Genesis of the "Sabbath" as a command of rest to humans every 7th day. We find that when God gave that command of the Sabbath to the Israelites that it was called a sign WITH them and that it commemorated TWO events, both of which were crucial in their relationship to God in the covenant:

God was their creator
God was their redeemer.

The covenant document, the ten commandments, therefore contain this sign with Israel of God as their Suzerain, in parallel with covenants of the day. It lists the past relationship with their Lord and the reasons for obedience.

2. Paul argues "let no one judge you" and Christ also argues in Matt 7 "judge not that you be not judged" - Pre-cross. This is no change.

3. I am not arguing that people should judge others regarding Sabbath - God alone determines that sin is transgression of His Law and He alone judges in that regard. We do nothing but choose individually to keep it or ignore it.

Yet Adventists CONSTANTLY judge folks on the Sabbath. But why are they not to judge? Because it is a shadow.

4.
In Lev 23 we see both annual feast days that are not Sabbaths (days of holy convocation) and those that are Sabbaths. (Passover and the feast of Unleavened bread being a good example).

in Christ,

Bob

Sorry but this misses the point. They are all called by the same term as "feast" in Col. 2.

The term for feast in Col. 2 is ἑορτῆς.

Col 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων,

That term is used in Lev. 23 for all of the holy days of the Lord, including the ceremonial sabbaths:

Lev 23:4 "These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them.

Lev 23:4 Αὗται αἱ ἑορταὶ τῷ κυρίῳ, κληταὶ ἅγιαι, ἃς καλέσετε αὐτὰς ἐν τοῖς καιροῖς αὐτῶν.

tall73 · Dec 13, 2008

To the person who sent me a personal message warning me of eternal damnation for resisting the Sabbath on scriptural grounds, and leading people astray, please post here publicly and show my view wrong from the Scriptures. I am open to change on that point. I have done so before. It is certainly not my goal to lead anyone astray, starting with myself. But I can't make the decision on back-room warnings with no evidence. If you are concerned about people being led astray-including me, since you seem concerned in your letter, then come post the evidence.

To anyone reading this thread, please make no decision on my say-so. Examine the Bible for yourself.

BobRyan · Dec 13, 2008

tall73 said:
Bob said
Indeed, it would be difficult to make the case that it stood for redemption from Egypt too. But it did.

Click to expand...

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

There was no giving at all in Genesis of the "Sabbath"

1. As we both know - the Deut 5 incident is 40 years AFTER sinai and merely adds to what God spoke from the mountain -- it is not a replacement.

2. There is no way God could have 'made sabbath holy in Gen 2 by telling Adam about deliverance from Egypt" Which means that the "holy Day" of Gen 2:1-3 had only one application for "all mankind" when it was "Made for mankind" not "mankind Made for it".

3. Ex 20:8-11 does not say "Now I make the 7th day holy" rather it says that in Eden God "made it Holy"

. We find that when God gave that command of the Sabbath to the Israelites that it was called a sign WITH them and that it commemorated TWO events, both of which were crucial in their relationship to God in the covenant:

God was their creator
God was their redeemer.

We gentiles still use that same application - but we have no idea that God was telling Adam about a future Redeemer in Gen 2:1-3 which is why we see no reference to it in Ex 20:8-11 as God Himself speaks it from Sinai.

There is not doubt that Moses is correct in stating that Israel had an additional reason to honor Christ's Holy out of special national gratitude for deliverance from Egypt (that had nothing to do with a 7 day cycle at all)

Yet Adventists CONSTANTLY judge folks on the Sabbath.

How so?

Do we "judge people on image worship"?? I don't think so.

Do we "judge people on praying to the dead"?? I don't think so.

Do we "judge people for breaking God's memorial of His Creative work" - no.

We simply point to what the Bible says and let each person decide for themselves.

But why are they not to judge? Because it is a shadow.

They are not to judge because as Christ said in Matt 7 PRE-CROSS "judge not that you be not judged".

The "judge not" argument of Paul is in perfect harmony with the pre-cross position on this error.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Dec 13, 2008

Bob said

4.
In Lev 23 we see both annual feast days that are not Sabbaths (days of holy convocation) and those that are Sabbaths. (Passover and the feast of Unleavened bread being a good example).

tall73 said:
Sorry but this misses the point. They are all called by the same term as "feast" in Col. 2.

The term for feast in Col. 2 is ἑορτῆς.

Col 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων,

That term is used in Lev. 23 for all of the holy days of the Lord, including the ceremonial sabbaths:

Lev 23:4 "These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them.

Lev 23:4 Αὗται αἱ ἑορταὶ τῷ κυρίῳ, κληταὶ ἅγιαι, ἃς καλέσετε αὐτὰς ἐν τοῖς καιροῖς αὐτῶν.

The 7th-day Sabbath in Lev 23 is said to be a Sabbath of "holy convocation" but is not called a feast in Lev 23 and in fact is not a feast.

The Day of Atonement in Lev 23 is said to be a "Sabbath of holy convocation" but is not said to be a "feast" in Lev 23.

The Jubilie rest every 7th year is a Sabbath that is also not a "feast" as John Gill points out.

The translators of NASB and Young's Literal Translation appear to be correct in Lev 23:2, 4 with the term "appointed times" (translit - Miqra') and then in vs 6 "FEAST of Unleavened Bread" (translit - Chag) for that which is actually a feast day.

in Christ,

Bob

Restin · Dec 13, 2008

tall73 said:
Indeed, it would be difficult to make the case that it stood for redemption from Egypt too. But it did.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Deliverance 'from Egypt' is trumped by a greater deliverance....

Jer 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said,
The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel [deliverance] from the land of the north,
and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that
I gave unto their fathers. KJV Similar to Jer 23:7-8

tall said:
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

The ark of the covenant (incl two tables stone}, is not remembered in the city of ZION!

Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days,
saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD:
neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it;
neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations
shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: KJV

Praise God....Restin

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