Focused discussion: A study of the Nazarite vow and the question of wine

[tall73]

The Nazarite vow was a vow of separation unto the Lord:

Num 6:1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Num 6:2 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the LORD,

One of the provisions was to separate from all grape products. But in the listing of these we see some distinctions.


Num 6:3 he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.
Num 6:4 All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, not even the seeds or the skins.

Wine and strong drink are grouped together and are a separate entity from juice of grapes.

After the vow the Nazarite could again drink from wine.

Num 6:20 and the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD. They are a holy portion for the priest, together with the breast that is waved and the thigh that is contributed. And after that the Nazirite may drink wine.

This text demonstrates to me that the term wine was used for other than just grape juice, and was permitted in some situations.


This is a focused discussion on a singular text. Other texts can be used to bring insight, but the focus is on the one text.

Please note I do not drink at all. In a modern context I do not endorse anyone start drinking. On the other hand if someone already does drink and does not get drunk, I do not condemn them either.

 

[JohnMarsten]

I have to agree with you.

The bible doesnt condemn wine or strong drink and neither should we. However, like you say we need to be aware that alcohol can be dangerous and we shouldnt promote it to anyone who doesnt drink on his own accord.

Personally I dont drink very often, havent drunk anything as of this year, I have some bottles of wine at home which I have stored for a good occasion, I am not even tempted to open them and this is a sign to me that I am OK with it... I know other people who would actually have a problem with that and for such people abstinence would be a blessing...

ahh, and yes, when God means grape juice He apparently means it...

 

[Pythons]

When Jesus said John came "not drinking" but Jesus did drink...
...Is it possible that Jesus' literal meaning was He only meant grape juice.
...And when He turned the water into wine it was just really good grape juice?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

If our bodies are considered the temple of the Lord, why would He encourage/endorse/advocate the use of alcohol? What health advantages does it have over it's known detriments? Is this same reasoning valid in someone smoking marihuana to relax after a stressful day? Or the occasional hit of cocaine to give a little energy?

 

[Pythons]

If our bodies are considered the temple of the Lord, why would He encourage/endorse/advocate the use of alcohol? What health advantages does it have over it's known detriments? Is this same reasoning valid in someone smoking marihuana to relax after a stressful day? Or the occasional hit of cocaine to give a little energy?

The same medical community that states that smoking is bad for you....
...Also states that red wine in moderation is good for you.
...I'm not believing that there is any medical evidence that supports cocaine in moderation is good for you.

 

[JohnMarsten]

If our bodies are considered the temple of the Lord, why would He encourage/endorse/advocate the use of alcohol? What health advantages does it have over it's known detriments? Is this same reasoning valid in someone smoking marihuana to relax after a stressful day? Or the occasional hit of cocaine to give a little energy?

the kingdom of heaven is not about eating or drinking, ECR!

why would He encourage? I dont know, I am not Him.

But why did He say that those taking the Nazarene vow should abstay from wine AND grape juice? grape juice in this whole context would be understandable (Why that was, I dont know) but wine? If it was forbidden, I guess He wouldnt have needed to tell those Nazarene vow takers to abstain, or would you say that was a reminder only... just to make sure?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The same medical community that states that smoking is bad for you....
...Also states that red wine in moderation is good for you.
...I'm not believing that there is any medical evidence that supports cocaine in moderation is good for you.

The medical citations for marijuana are vast... in fact, I have never heard of studies that showed marijuana smoking was detrimental in any way. If you know different please post...

My point is, if you go down the road that says, God's supports drinking, then you have to, by the same logic, say that anything in moderation is ok. Maybe even a little sin?

Satan is subtle.. don't be fooled by mans reasoning . Use a little inspired wisdom to figure these things out.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

the kingdom of heaven is not about eating or drinking, ECR!

why would He encourage? I dont know, I am not Him.

But why did He say that those taking the Nazarene vow should abstay from wine AND grape juice? grape juice in this whole context would be understandable (Why that was, I dont know) but wine? If it was forbidden, I guess He wouldnt have needed to tell those Nazarene vow takers to abstain, or would you say that was a reminder only... just to make sure?

So a man that occasionally smokes and drinks and recreationally does drugs can enter heaven? What about listening to rock music? Maybe the bars are choked full of His people every friday night?

 

[tall73]

If our bodies are considered the temple of the Lord, why would He encourage/endorse/advocate the use of alcohol? What health advantages does it have over it's known detriments? Is this same reasoning valid in someone smoking marihuana to relax after a stressful day? Or the occasional hit of cocaine to give a little energy?

I see nothing here that addresses Numbers 6.

 

[tall73]

Satan is subtle.. don't be fooled by mans reasoning . Use a little inspired wisdom to figure these things out.

I don't believe Satan wrote Numbers 6. Do you?

If not then please address the text.

 

[tall73]

So a man that occasionally smokes and drinks and recreationally does drugs can enter heaven? What about listening to rock music? Maybe the bars are choked full of His people every friday night?

You can address Numbers 6 or duck it. So far you are ducking it.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I don't believe Satan wrote Numbers 6. Do you?

If not then please address the text.

Numbers 6 is telling us that to be holy and consecrated to God we are to refrain from alcohol...

I'm not sure what your goals are but mine is to have my character perfected so that I can become a king and a priest, holy and consecrated before God.

Rev 1:5,6
... Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Looking at the following list, do you see degrees of magnitude to the attributes listed? maybe if we only steal a little bit or fornicate occasionally, we'll be alright...
1 Cor 6:9,10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[tall73]

Numbers 6 is telling us that to be holy and consecrated to God we are to refrain from alcohol...

I'm not sure what your goals are but mine is to have my character perfected so that I can become a king and a priest, holy and consecrated before God.

Rev 1:5,6
... Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Now see, that is discussing the text. Much better!

We agree. The text indicates that during this time set aside to God the nazarite was to give up wine and strong drink.

And not using a razor.

And not going to family member burials.

And not eating grapes.

Are you doing that whole list?

And why does it say they can go back to drinking wine at the end? Didn't God want them to be perfect?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

What constitutes too much alcohol? Can you determine that? Is a person who has to have a drink every time he eats an alcoholic? What about the housewife that likes to have a glass of wine when doing housework... is sh e an alcoholic? According to some governmental substance abuse programs, they are. So who is to judge when enough is too much?

 

[tall73]

Looking at the following list, do you see degrees of magnitude to the attributes listed? maybe if we only steal a little bit or fornicate occasionally, we'll be alright...

Yes, where is your list that says Elders should not be given to MUCH fornication?

Did Paul tell Timothy to steal a little for his stomach?

Did God tell the Nazarites to go back to fornication after their vow?


I await your citations.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Now see, that is discussing the text. Much better!

We agree. The text indicates that during this time set aside to God the nazarite was to give up wine and strong drink.

And not using a razor.

And not going to family member burials.

And not eating grapes.

Are you doing that whole list?

And why does it say they can go back to drinking wine at the end? Didn't God want them to be perfect?

I have posted before on how God dealt with His people differently in different dispensations. Do I think that God wanted anyone to drink alcohol? Why would He? He was just 'picking His battles' as it were to bring His people to an understanding of His purpose for their lives. He also, in the time we are looking at, didn't do much about polygamy or slavery, but we both agree that is not what God wanted.

 

[tall73]

What constitutes too much alcohol? Can you determine that? Is a person who has to have a drink every time he eats an alcoholic? What about the housewife that likes to have a glass of wine when doing housework... is sh e an alcoholic? According to some governmental substance abuse programs, they are. So who is to judge when enough is too much?

Are you saying Paul didn't think Timothy or the church could figure out the difference? Did he give them a standard impossible to apply to leaders in the church?

Did he think Timothy couldn't tell how much wine to use for his stomach?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Yes, where is your list that says Elders should not be given to MUCH fornication?

Did Paul tell Timothy to steal a little for his stomach?

Did God tell the Nazarites to go back to fornication after their vow?


I await your citations.

You read how you will and I will do the same.. I'm not going to turn this into another useless debate to which there will be no resolution.

Bottoms up...

 

[tall73]

I have posted before on how God dealt with His people differently in different dispensations. Do I think that God wanted anyone to drink alcohol? Why would He? He was just 'picking His battles' as it were to bring His people to an understanding of His purpose for their lives. He also, in the time we are looking at, didn't do much about polygamy or slavery, but we both agree that is not what God wanted.

Saying they could use it for tithe is not just accepting it, is it?



And Paul did speak against being a slave if you could buy your freedom in I Corinthians 7, and said you should be slaves of no man. And in the same passage it talks about not MUCH drink, it says husband of only one wife.

So yes, they were capable of addressing them.

 

[tall73]

Bottoms up...

Someone missed a memo. I don't drink.

This is not about me looking for an excuse to drink. This is about not saying what the text does not say.