Flood stratigraphy

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Mallon

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I hear a lot from creationists that Noah's Flood deposited many, most, or all of the world's sedimentary strata. Often, in response to such a statement, I and others will argue that the earth's strata could not have been deposited by the Flood, as evidenced by the salt layers, trace fossils, fossil forest sequences, etc. found throughout the geologic column. Usually, the creationist reply then comes, "Such geologic features were probably deposited either pre- or post-Flood."

My question for the creationists, then, is just which of the earth's strata were deposited during the Flood? Please be specific. It is exceedingly difficult to analyze the position for a global deluge when the resulting sedimentary layers cannot be positively identified. Let's discuss the evidence for and against these layers having been deposited by the Flood here.
 

laptoppop

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Actually this is an area of disagreement between YECs. For example, some hold that the flood destroyed basically any formations that were there before it, so the strata we see now should ALL be described in terms of flood and post-flood mechanisms. Others hold that various parts of the strata represent pre-flood layering and mechanisms. The one that I *think* makes the most sense is that the "precambrian" formations are pre-flood. This does explain the "cambrian explosion" nicely -- but there are other issues with this interpretation. I'm sorry, I have not studied this aspect enough to give a more detailed answer at this time.
 
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Mallon

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laptoppop said:
The one that I *think* makes the most sense is that the "precambrian" formations are pre-flood. This does explain the "cambrian explosion" nicely -- but there are other issues with this interpretation.
There certainly are. Like, for example, how does one explain Precambrian fossils like the Ediacaran fauna in light of such an interpretation? Why are only soft-bodied invertebrates preserved in "pre-Flood" rocks when we all know that hard-bodied creatures are so much more likely to be preserved? How does one explain away the lines of evidence I have outlined above found in Phanerozoic strata that contradict the Flood hypothesis?
I'm sorry, I have not studied this aspect enough to give a more detailed answer at this time.
Thank you for your honesty, laptoppop. I only hope that, given the number of people here who espouse Flood Geology, someone will be able to give a more thought-out answer. I'm not so much interested in which strata weren't deposited by the Flood as those that were.
 
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Deamiter

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I'm going to focus on the oft-cited Grand Canyon here not because it's the only major evidence against a global flood, but because young-earth creationists virtually universally agree that the Grand Canyon was created in the still-soft sedement from the Flood. As such I will make a couple of assumptions about the young-earth creationist position:

First, the Grand Canyon is proposed to have been carved in rather soft sedement during or shortly after the great flood.

Second, the layers in which the Grand Canyon is cut are proposed to have all been laid down by the flood itself.

If you (as a young-earth creationist reader) object to these assumptions, I'd ask first why no major young-earth creationist organization has objected to these claims. In short, do you have citations for your objections, or did you come up with them yourself? If you really intend to counter by rejecting these assumptions, please explain how ANY amount of water could cut such a narrow channel in the many layers of solid rock in under a year (or even two years to be generous). Please show your work. And do forward it to AiG, ICR and any other creationist you can think of so you're all working on the same page!

Given that the young-earth creationist position assumes these two things, I will go over the top 1000 ft of rock (out of the 5000 ft of the Grand Canyon at it's deepest). Note that precambrian rocks do not start until 3000 ft down, so I'm still well within laptoppop's proposed flood-deposition range. Further, as the Colorado River cannot flood over these 5000 ft (!) and there is no other mechanism for deposition on the scale of inches (much less thousands of feet) I think it would be safe to assume that these top 1000 feet haven't been deposited in the last 4000 years.

The top four layers (going down 1000 ft) from bottom to top are Hermit Shale, Coconino Sandstone, Toroweap Formation, and Kaibab Formation.

Below the Hermit Shale are a series of coastal layers deposited at various oceanic depths. There are many layers that were alternately at the bottom of the ocean or on the coast (never deeper than a shallow marine shelf).

the Hermit Shale was a coastal swamp as evidenced by its extensive preservation of terrestrial plants, insect wings etc... Interestingly enough, the layers just below the Hermit Shale were apparently laid down as a coastal plain, though the layers below THAT were definitely marine. Apparently the flood stopped long enough for the plain to become populated with a variety of grasses and animals before converting back to an intertidal shallow marine shelf, and then a swamp?

Next is the Coconino Sandstone layers -- windblown sand dunes that stretched as far as Montana! This is quite a desert (much like the Sahara) and could hardly have dried out and generated dunes in the year of a global flood! Sometimes creationists claim that the dunes were underwater -- but this is not supported by the numerous reptillian tracks -- some as big as a cow! Since this is over 4000 ft from where the flood must have started depositing, this reptillian creature must have been treading water for months before making tracks in the sand! Other tracks like those of centepede-like insects and raindrop impressions are also found discounting claims of underwater deposition (in which you would find none of this, with plenty of fish scales, and aquatic, not land plants.


Above the Coconino Sandstone is the Toroweap Formation. This is again near the shore, but in this layer there are the dessecated formations I mentioned in an earlier thread. Quite simply, there are dried-out, dessecated salt flats with crystals that cannot form on the bottom of the ocean. They are formed by long periods of evaporation. Of course, the Toroweap Formation is primarily costal, but the existance of such extensive salt flats presents a bit of a problem with any proposed global flood.

Finally, the Kaibab Formation -- an off-shore shallow marine shelf. There are plenty of marine fossils in here, including coral, mollusks, fish teeth etc... If the Grand Canyon were cut prior to this layer, there would be evidence of the reflooding SOMEWHERE along the canyon -- particularly in places where the Canyon was rerouted leaving channels cut into the rock, yet without further erosion to remove evidence of the reflooding. That shows that the earlier salt flats in the Toroweap formation must have beem created prior to the formation of the Grand Canyon -- again bringing up the question, "how was there a vast desert followed by multiple dessecation events during a year-long global flood?!?"

I'm afraid I've lost most readers' attention by now, and I've nowhere NEAR exhausted the information out there on these layers. And remember, this is only 1/5 of the depth of the Grand Canyon! I don't fault people for avoiding the massive heaps of dry and often boring information out there on the geologic column, but if avoiding the information, I rather feel one should not claim to hold truth on the subject.

A few quick sources, although I have to admit that about half of this post was from memory, and although I checked all the major facts, if I were to go for more sources, I'd end up writing a book, not a forum post!

http://www.kaibab.org/geology/gc_layer.htm
http://www.rockhounds.com/grand_hikes/geology/overview.shtml
http://www.astro.lsa.umich.edu/~cowley/GCandMoon.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icr-visit/bartelt4.html
 
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jereth

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shernren recently cited an extremely informative article which exposed the absurdity of catastrophic plate tectonics (the flood theory currently promoted by AiG).
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/subduction.htm

The article (by Glenn Morton, former YECist) reveals a major contradiction between 2 standard creationist assertions:
A. The flood is responsible for practically all fossil-bearing strata
B. The breakup of Pangaea initiated the flood

The problem is that fossil-bearing strata (A) go much deeper than Pangaea (B). The Cambrian period began ca. 500 MYA, but Pangaea began dividing ~200 MYA (in the Jurassic). So there is a discrepany of ~300 million years (according to conventional dating) to account for.


Top of geologic column
------------------------------------------


Jurassic (breakup of Pangaea)
~200 million years ago
------------------------------------------ ?? Flood begins here ??


Cambrian (start of fossil record)
~500 million years ago
------------------------------------------ ?? Flood begins here ??
Pre-Cambrian


How do we get around this? One might suggest that the flood actually began in the Jurassic. But then you have to explain how 300 million years worth of fossil-bearing strata could be deposited in a mere 1600 years between Creation Week and Flood. Clearly this is impossible. There must have been another global catastrophe (unmentioned in the Bible) pre-dating the flood, to explain the killing of such a colossal quantity of life. And then this huge section of the geologic column must have somehow survived the destructive forces of Noah's flood.
 
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Mallon

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oldwiseguy said:
I think it would be easier to reconstruct the world trade center from the rubble of 9/11 than to make sense of the geologic record. Haven't ya'all noticed that it's a big mess?
So is curing cancer.
That's what differentiates scientists from creationists. Scientists are willing take up the challenge and sort through the mess; creationists just throw their hands up in the air and cry "Goddidit!"
 
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jereth

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oldwiseguy said:
I think it would be easier to reconstruct the world trade center from the rubble of 9/11 than to make sense of the geologic record. Haven't ya'all noticed that it's a big mess?

Actually, it's not.

If the geologic record was a big mess, that would support creationism and global flood theory.

As a matter of fact, the geologic record clearly shows layers getting older with increasing depth, and the fossils becoming progressively more primitive.
 
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jereth

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Mallon said:
I sense another quiet thread.

We could probably make a whole list of them!

So long as things are kept general and vague, YECists will keep on arguing. But whenever a very specific question is asked... silence. That's the secret :D

It's interesting to take the time and analyse AiG's literature -- for all its impressive volume, there are huge holes on topics where they really have no clue at all.
 
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Jadis40

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This thread reminds me of why I reject the idea of a global flood now. Nothing the global flood camp has presented to the contrary has done a satisfactory job of explaining the stratigraphy of the Grand Canyon, especially when you talk about the Coconino Sandstone, which are wind-blown sand dunes.
 
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jereth

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I think it's time to repeat the OP's question.

My question for the creationists, then, is just which of the earth's strata were deposited during the Flood? Please be specific.

So far, the only YECist response we've had is from laptopop, who offered the suggestion that the cambrian/pre-cambrian boundary represents the boundary between flood and pre-flood strata.

Doesn't anyone else have an opinion about this? It really makes it hard for us TEists to take Flood Geology seriously when seemingly no thought has gone into such a basic and fundamental question.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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jereth said:
I think it's time to repeat the OP's question.



So far, the only YECist response we've had is from laptopop, who offered the suggestion that the cambrian/pre-cambrian boundary represents the boundary between flood and pre-flood strata.

Doesn't anyone else have an opinion about this? It really makes it hard for us TEists to take Flood Geology seriously when seemingly no thought has gone into such a basic and fundamental question.

Why don't you all just go out to the parking lot an duke it out? Whoever wins gets to be right. :D
 
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Deamiter

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oldwiseguy said:
Why don't you all just go out to the parking lot an duke it out? Whoever wins gets to be right. :D
??

I guess I find it rather disheartening that no YECist takes their beliefs seriously enough to defend even such a basic challenge. This old "this is how I interpret the Bible, so it must be true" gets kinda old when it's the ONLY answer to any questions -- whether literary, theological or scientific.
 
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Mallon

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Floodnut said:
The world was destroyed by a universal flood, about 4500 years ago. The interpretation of all physical evidence must fit into that reality.
As a self-professed flood-nut, do you have an interpretation that would fit "all physical evidence"? So far, no one else has but laptoppop. Isn't there supposed to be a "science" aspect to "creation science"?
 
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Floodnut

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Mallon said:
As a self-professed flood-nut, do you have an interpretation that would fit "all physical evidence"? So far, no one else has but laptoppop. Isn't there supposed to be a "science" aspect to "creation science"?
Using the term, "self-professed" generally suggests prideful self-promotion. In fact it is an "admission," not a boast.
I never try to fit the interpretation to the evidence. The Bible comes first. I am not a scientist.
The flood occured world-wide about 4500 years ago and destroyed all of the human race, except our ancestors, the eight in the family of Noah who were on the Ark. The flood destroyed all air-breathing land animals except those on the ark, the ancestors of all living animals on the earth as well as others that have gone extinct since the flood.
 
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Mallon

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Sigh... is anyone here willing to present an argument relating to the OT? Anyone? Creationists tend to get upset that their views are not well respected in the science community, yet when their beliefs are put to the test, they are unwilling to back themselves beyond "I let my Bible do my thinking for me." You can't have your creation "science" taught in the schools if nobody's put any thought into the subject!
And yet we'll continue to hear, "evolutionary theory is not science." Well, at least it comes up with some answers.
 
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