Flood Migration

[AV1611VET]

This make no sense at all but making no sense at all is what you are best at so I am not surprised by your nonsense reply.

Good -- then this won't surprise you even more:

A beeline you say. You do know that the Koala is a marsupial animal that only lives in Eucalyptus trees and never travels more than a few miles in its entire life don't you?

I'm actually sitting here almost with goose-bumps as I read this.

I find this point exciting -- I really do.

This tells me then, that if I am to agree with you that Koala bears were aboard the Ark as you say, then God teleported some of the animals to the embarkation point, à la Acts 8.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Good -- then this won't surprise you even more:

I'm actually sitting here almost with goose-bumps as I read this.

I find this point exciting -- I really do.

This tells me then, that if I am to agree with you that Koala bears were aboard the Ark as you say, then God teleported some of the animals to the embarkation point, à la Acts 8.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

So Gene Rodenberry had it right, huh?

 

[Split Rock]

This tells me then, that if I am to agree with you that Koala bears were aboard the Ark as you say, then God teleported some of the animals to the embarkation point, à la Acts 8.

Oh look!! It's "The Documentation!"
YouTube - TOS Obsession transporter scene

 

[marktheblake]

I thought that is what I did in this post
http://www.christianforums.com/t155813/#post2651841

Doesnt look like it.

answering each of the proposed creationist models to explain biogeography

looks like you answered one, about Koalas, but you only answered that with hand waving.

You will notice that it is a long way from what is now the Middle East to what is now Australia.

it is a long way.

The island of Krakatoa, is teeming with life yet it has not existed for 100 years. How did this life get there?

It is only a tiny example, but most people would have expected that to be absurd if it did not happen.

 

[marktheblake]

AIf you are a believer of the flood scenario the only answer you can possibly come up with is 'God did it' .

You are dead wrong. That you do not know what answers Flood Geologists come up with does not mean the only answer is "God did it"

that's the only way forward because miracles from God would be needed left right and centre to simply overcome the physics involved

That does not mean God did not use miracles to shape the events, but the text clearly makes statements about natural events (rain, fountains of the deep, wind).

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Doesnt look like it.


looks like you answered one, about Koalas, but you only answered that with hand waving.

it is a long way.

I am not the one doing the hand waving. I can only conclude that you didn't actually read what I wrote or refused to think about what it means if you did.

The island of Krakatoa, is teeming with life yet it has not existed for 100 years. How did this life get there?

It is not really clear if the island was sterilized by the 1883 eruption but, OK, how many species of mammals live on Krakatoa? The plants could get there from bird droppings or on the tides and insects can be wind born and both could have been brought there either deliberately or by accident from the many people who visit the island. Also, some species of reptiles are known to travel short distances over water on floating vegetation. Do you think marsupial moles and Koalas floated to Australia on vegetation?

As far as mammal species actually on Krakatoa rats are found some of the islands but Anak Krakatoa (Krakatau) the newly formed island didn't even have rats as of 1986 and rats eventually end up everywhere. All of the islands have bats but of course bats can fly.
Reference (Iwamoto: Ecology Research 1:249-258 1986)

It is only a tiny example, but most people would have expected that to be absurd if it did not happen.

No, but it would be absurd to expect 180 species of marsupials on Kratatoa and no placental mammals. It is not absurd to expect to find bats, land crabs, some reptiles and in some cases rats on the Krakatoa islands.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

You are dead wrong. That you do not know what answers Flood Geologists come up with does not mean the only answer is "God did it"

"Flood geologists" come up with total nonsense like this
http://www.christianforums.com/t50735/

and this
http://www.christianforums.com/t60449/


"Flood geologists" can't even tell us where the flood starts and stops in the geological record.

http://www.christianforums.com/t62311/

and they can't begin to deal with the many Falsifications of the worldwide flood
http://www.christianforums.com/t95378/

That does not mean God did not use miracles to shape the events, but the text clearly makes statements about natural events (rain, fountains of the deep, wind).

None of it works without a continous stream of miracles to keep Noah and family and his floating zoo alive while murdering everything else on earth with a global flood but I suggest we keep this thread focused on the miracle required to "teleport" animals such as Koalas and other marsupials to their current locations.

 

[Targ]

Not only is there a problem with migration of animals, there is also a problem with the migration of plants, since they would need to be either taken aboard or face extinction.

And even if they were transported to the Middle East as AVET speculates, you have the problem of how the plants and animals would survive aboard the ark, given that different species require different habitats. Some need tundra-like conditions, some desert, some grassland, some forest, some marshland and without these habitats and climates, many of the creatures would have died. There is no way you could replicate all of these habitats and climates within one vessel.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not only is there a problem with migration of animals, there is also a problem with the migration of plants, since they would need to be either taken aboard or face extinction.

And even if they were transported to the Middle East as AVET speculates, you have the problem of how the plants and animals would survive aboard the ark, given that different species require different habitats. Some need tundra-like conditions, some desert, some grassland, some forest, some marshland and without these habitats and climates, many of the creatures would have died. There is no way you could replicate all of these habitats and climates within one vessel.

Please allow me to apply a principle here from the New Testament:

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Just how big and in-depth do you want the Bible to be, anyway?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Please allow me to apply a principle here from the New Testament:

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Just how big and in-depth do you want the Bible to be, anyway?

Qaulity > Quantity

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Not only is there a problem with migration of animals, there is also a problem with the migration of plants, since they would need to be either taken aboard or face extinction.

One example is the Southern Beech Nothofagus. Their seeds can't survive long in water so they must have been on the ark. I guess after the trees came off the ark they made a beeline for Australia, New Guinea, New Zealand and South America. I supposed they marched right along with the Koalas and Maruspial moles, or maybe the Enterprise came back through time and Scotty beamed them over there as Split Rock suggests.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Oh look!! It's "The Documentation!"
YouTube - TOS Obsession transporter scene

Beam me up Scotty. There's no intellegent life on this planet.

 

[Targ]

Beam me up Scotty. There's no intellegent life on this planet.

What surprised me was that nobody told Scotty that they need more power ... "but I cannee, I'm giving it all she's got!" "not good enough, we need more!" "aye okay!" ... maybe it was because Jim wasn't there.

 

[Targ]

Please allow me to apply a principle here from the New Testament:

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

This is just hand waving and explains nothing.

Just how big and in-depth do you want the Bible to be, anyway?

I don't expect it to explain every detail. But the global flood interpretation that you apply to Genesis 6-9 is so unrealistic that you have to explain every problem away with a few hundred miracles. Not only that, you also have to explain why, if the global flood story is to be believed, does the world look like it did not experience a global flood ~4,500 years ago. A miraculous removal of all evidence would just be deceptive. The only way every species of plant and animal could squeeze into the ark is if the ark was like the Tardis with a Narnia-like world inside. When you reach this stage, this is when you should realise that you really need to re-evaluate your own views.

 

[Nostromo]

Please allow me to apply a principle here from the New Testament:

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Just how big and in-depth do you want the Bible to be, anyway?

Meeting the needs of your potential users is paramount to effective documentation. You can't tell me that he didn't see this (us) coming.

 

[AV1611VET]

This is just hand waving and explains nothing.

Right -- explains nothing.

You're wondering why all these miracles weren't documented, and I show you this verse, and you call it 'handwaving'.

You're only answering like this, so you can assume your point is still valid.

Let me ask you this: how many miracles were not documented -- that's not documented -- with the following incidents:

1. burning bush
2. parting of the Red Sea
3. the fiery furnace
4. Daniel in the Lion's den
5. Jonah and the whale

And the granddaddy doosey of all anti-science: Earth2 without a sun?

Do you also think these are just made-up stories based solely on the fact that it would take a truckload of miracles to explain them?

 

[AV1611VET]

Meeting the needs of your potential users is paramount to effective documentation. You can't tell me that he didn't see this (us) coming.

Indeed, He did see this coming.

This is why I think He "jumbled" the order of creation events in Genesis 1.

Knowing that in the latter times, scientism would emerge as a new religion, I think He purposefully did things in a way that science says can't happen.

In other words, the more "jumbled" the order of events were, the more Genesis 1 stands out as being done miraculously.

 

[Cabal]

Indeed, He did see this coming.

This is why I think He "jumbled" the order of creation events in Genesis 1.

Knowing that in the latter times, scientism would emerge as a new religion, I think He purposefully did things in a way that science says can't happen.

In other words, the more "jumbled" the order of events were, the more Genesis 1 stands out as being done miraculously.

And this is why you can't refute theism.

Because no matter how many times you pwn their arguments into the ground with evidence, the goalposts get moved, the retcons get made, and the doublethink goes into action as they start genuinely convincing themselves that it was supposed to be this way all along.

 

[AV1611VET]

And this is why you can't refute theism.

Because no matter how many times you pwn their arguments into the ground with evidence, the goalposts get moved...

How far back do you think the goalposts were moved to even perform the miracles?

Is not that we're pushing them back, it's that you guys are trying to bring them forward.

 

[marktheblake]

I am not the one doing the hand waving.

Most of the referred post has little to do with the casual quote from Sarfati. You summed it up in your first comment "that doesnt explain anything".

Yes you are right it doesnt. It would have been a far more credible argument if you picked out one of Jonathans articles where he does explain things or one of his colleagues. There is no way to tell from that prose whether you are strawmanning or not.

Or even better, write to him, am sure he will be glad to respond

I can only conclude that you didn't actually read what I wrote or refused to think about what it means if you did.

Yes I can understand you would think that about someone who does not agree with you.

No, but it would be absurd to expect 180 species of marsupials on Kratatoa and no placental mammals.

Its not even 100 years. its been 4500 years plus since the alleged flood. Evolutionists keep telling us that long periods of time solve all problems, i guess you do not like it when your best defence is used against you.

"Flood geologists" come up with total nonsense like this

It remains irrelevant whether you think its nonsense (of course you would because if it wasn't nonsense you would then beleive it to be true)

Apart from the fact I was not addressing you, but the other guy who said If you are a believer of the flood scenario the only answer you can possibly come up with is 'God did it'

Thank you for proving him wrong by showing him a list of other answers, that you do not like those answers doesn't matter, the answers exist.