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Flood, literal or not?

thaumaturgy

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It is mathematically impossible to feed 5000 with five barley loaves and two small fishes?

Excellent question. In order to feed 5000 people with 5 barley loaves and 2 small fishes it would require a miracle.

Since most miracles are usually pretty easy to explain away by physical processes or plain misinterpretation by the viewer, it is therefore highly unlikely that miracles happen.

It is, however, known that stories get made up and passed around and editted and altered over the course of time. So when it came down to the actual "transcription" of this story, probably at least decades after the fact and probably without anyone who was an actual witness to the fact, the story was probably made up!

Thanks for bringing that up! It's an excellent thought exercise.

The Flood is another example of a miracle that left no evidence for its existence and is far more likely to have been an allegorical tale or simply "made up".

Excellent comparison.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Would that then constitute a miracle?
It would but it would not be something that should have left massive evidence that it happened all over the world. Do you think God erased the evidence of the alleged global flood? Why would he do that and then have his "chosen people" record it in their holy book?
 
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AV1611VET

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Can you show me irrefutable proof that it happened?

There were eight witnesses to it, and they are no longer with us. One of them, however, put it down in writing, which was preserved and translated into my language.
 
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AV1611VET

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Thank you --- but you're overlooking something: Jesus Himself confirmed the Flood, His Father promised to keep the story preserved, and even one of His disciples wrote about it.
 
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AV1611VET

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My suggestion Frumious, is that if you can't find physical evidence of something you want to find in the Bible --- keep looking.
 
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FishFace

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Thank you --- but you're overlooking something: Jesus Himself confirmed the Flood, His Father promised to keep the story preserved, and even one of His disciples wrote about it.

No he didn't. What you mean, of course, is that it is written in the Bible that..., which is something completely different. And that's assuming what you claim is not some conservative, far-fetched interpretation.
 
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AV1611VET

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No he didn't. What you mean, of course, is that it is written in the Bible that..., which is something completely different. And that's assuming what you claim is not some conservative, far-fetched interpretation.

Translation and interpretation are two different things.

I had nothing to do with translating the Scriptures. My job is to (with the help of the Holy Spirit) correctly interpret it, since I am going to be held accountable for what's written therein.
 
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AV1611VET

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That does not make it a valid historical source

If you want to look at it as a history book, then I would say it has more detail in it than our best text books.
 
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Prince Lucianus

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Actually, this miracle happened twice. First and only written down by Mark.
Matthew and Luke thought describing only one would be enough. Obviously doubting the second occurence.
That the second story is probably an other oral tradition is likely, since the apostles complain in the 2nd story that they can't feed all the people, while Jesus just showed them in the first.
Mark makes it quite clear that they both happened, since the apostles complain in the boat that they have no food and might starve (being with Jesus). Jesus explains them that they should remember the 2 feeding miracles (they obviously forgot again).

Lucy
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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My suggestion Frumious, is that if you can't find physical evidence of something you want to find in the Bible --- keep looking.
You do understand the Christian Geologists who first falsified the global flood were doing exactly that don't you? I assume you know that not only is there no evidence for this alleged global flood, it is falsified by geology, paleontology, biogeography, archeology, biodiversity and other branches of science. If there was a global flood God thoroughy covered it up by poofing away all the evidence of his horrible crime. Which brings up the question, why did He have His chosen people record it?
 
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thaumaturgy

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Thank you --- but you're overlooking something: Jesus Himself confirmed the Flood, His Father promised to keep the story preserved, and even one of His disciples wrote about it.

Jesus confirmed it? Did he point to any actual physical evidence for the Flood? That would certainly have helped.

His Father failed to actually keep the story preserved in the physical rocks that would have been the FIRST witnesses of the flood.

Not that resorting to Jesus isn't an effective point to make, but what we are face with is:

1. Jesus (a person of questionable historicity) claimed to speak for God (a claim of even less historicity and not uncommon for some people occasionally) and said that the Flood happened (which might have been something he had learned merely by reading the Bible.)

vs.

2. The physical world which fails at every known point to show evidence of a global flood.

The rocks are not as open to "interpretation" as the Word. The rocks pretty muc say what they say and it is hard to misinterpret something as fundamental as a global flood if it existed. The "Word", however, can be altered to fit theological needs or simply "made up" in parts.

But let's take one step further back: Suppose you were dropped onto the planet earth without ever having heard of the Bible or God or anything. You were not told of any ancient stories or any myths of any kind.

With sufficient time, say 200 years of study and the ability to travel across the globe, you could put together a pretty clear story of what happened on the earth and it would NOT contain anything even remotely like a "Global Flood". Not even close.

It takes a mythological story recorded in one place to give us the idea there was a Global Flood.

One data point versus an entire planet's worth.
 
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FishFace

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Jesus treated it as such --- so did all the NT writers.

There you go again! Tut tut! What you mean, naturally, is that the Bible says that Jesus treated it as such. In fact, given that this same collection is all you have to support the idea that Jesus' word is worth anything at all, I don't know what the fuss is about.
 
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Beastt

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Translation and interpretation are two different things.

I had nothing to do with translating the Scriptures. My job is to (with the help of the Holy Spirit) correctly interpret it, since I am going to be held accountable for what's written therein.
And even if you can't show that your co-author exists, you'll assert that he does and that part of what went into the translation should be credited to him -- thereby, attempting to garner greater authority for your own opinions and beliefs.

This sounds very much like the way the Bible was written... and the way the Qur'an was written... and the way Oahspe was written... and the way the Book of Mormon was written... and the documents of David Koresh... and so on, and so on, and so on.
 
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Beastt

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Are you attempting to insinuate that men 2,000 years ago didn't have perfect recall for things they heard, (or claimed to have heard), someone say over 40-years before they bothered to think them important enough to write them down?
 
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