"Flee fornication"

[Washington]

Consider.

Fornication:
voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.
source
​

Then look at: 1 Corinthians 6:18-20

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
​

And 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
​

My question is, just why does the physical coupling of the sexual organs of a male and female merit such disdain? People can certainly touch each other in other places without raising such condemnation, so what is it about these two organs that make them so wicked? It certainly can't be because they are the instruments of human reproduction. After all, god did tell his people to go out and multiply, and the only way to do so is to use the two. Can it be the pleasure one derives from the act? If so, why would any pleasure that harms no one be so harshly denounced?

Yet fornication somehow defiles the "temple of the Holy Ghost,"; however, within the confines of marriage the same act evidently does not? And even within this context its legitimacy is only granted begrudgingly.

Marriage is seen as not much more than a "better than nothing" sort of Fix. Simply consider the passage above. To paraphrase: "Men shouldn't have sexual relations with a woman, but because they can't help themselves they need to be married."

It's as if marriage itself does nothing to ameliorate the evil of sexual intercourse, it simply gives one a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. Which brings me back to my original question: just why does the physical coupling of the sexual organs of a male and female merit such disdain? Why does god hate it so much?







Oh yes, "God works in mysterious ways" won't cut it here.
(And please try to stay on subject and be nice so as not to get the thread closed. Thanks!)

 

[chingchang]

Consider.

Fornication:
voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.
source
​

Then look at: 1 Corinthians 6:18-20

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
​

And 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
​

My question is, just why does the physical coupling of the sexual organs of a male and female merit such disdain? People can certainly touch each other in other places without raising such condemnation, so what is it about these two organs that make them so wicked? It certainly can't be because they are the instruments of human reproduction. After all, god did tell his people to go out and multiply, and the only way to do so is to use the two. Can it be the pleasure one derives from the act? If so, why would any pleasure that harms no one be so harshly denounced?

Yet fornication somehow defiles the "temple of the Holy Ghost,"; however, within the confines of marriage the same act evidently does not? And even within this context its legitimacy is only granted begrudgingly.

Marriage is seen as not much more than a "better than nothing" sort of Fix. Simply consider the passage above. To paraphrase: "Men shouldn't have sexual relations with a woman, but because they can't help themselves they need to be married."

It's as if marriage itself does nothing to ameliorate the evil of sexual intercourse, it simply gives one a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. Which brings me back to my original question: just why does the physical coupling of the sexual organs of a male and female merit such disdain? Why does god hate it so much?



Oh yes, "God works in mysterious ways" won't cut it here.
(And please try to stay on subject and be nice so as not to get the thread closed. Thanks!)

I wish Christians would ask why more. You've nailed it. The truth is...God doesn't hate it so much. If you go to the Christian Philosophy and Ethics forum and search for this topic you'll find a wide-range of scriptural-based opinions. There are a few other Christians that agree with me...not many. The only way to know for sure is to go back to the oldest Greek source documents...where you'll find the Greek word that is translated to our 'fornication'. The definition of that word does not match the definition of our 'fornication'. There are many examples in the OT of folks that were on God's "good side" that had extra-marital sexual relations and those acts were not condemned by God.

CC

 

[seashale76]

Consider.

Fornication:
voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.
source
​

Then look at: 1 Corinthians 6:18-20

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
​

And 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
​

My question is, just why does the physical coupling of the sexual organs of a male and female merit such disdain? People can certainly touch each other in other places without raising such condemnation, so what is it about these two organs that make them so wicked? It certainly can't be because they are the instruments of human reproduction. After all, god did tell his people to go out and multiply, and the only way to do so is to use the two. Can it be the pleasure one derives from the act? If so, why would any pleasure that harms no one be so harshly denounced?

Yet fornication somehow defiles the "temple of the Holy Ghost,"; however, within the confines of marriage the same act evidently does not? And even within this context its legitimacy is only granted begrudgingly.

Marriage is seen as not much more than a "better than nothing" sort of Fix. Simply consider the passage above. To paraphrase: "Men shouldn't have sexual relations with a woman, but because they can't help themselves they need to be married."

It's as if marriage itself does nothing to ameliorate the evil of sexual intercourse, it simply gives one a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. Which brings me back to my original question: just why does the physical coupling of the sexual organs of a male and female merit such disdain? Why does god hate it so much?

Oh yes, "God works in mysterious ways" won't cut it here.
(And please try to stay on subject and be nice so as not to get the thread closed. Thanks!)

For the Christian, everything can be related back to communion/eucharist. Marriage is a sacrament. It is also considered a martyrdom. You deny yourself for the sake of your spouse. You also aren't joined together with someone who also isn't in communion. When you engage in fornication- it is a proclamation that you are refusing to deny yourself for the sake of Christ and are choosing to engage your passions- you are knowingly excommunicating yourself. When one is baptized into Christ they are part of the body of Christ- the temple of the Holy Spirit- receiving Christ in the Holy Mysteries. Willfully sinning in this manner is serious business- one risks their soul unless they repent and return to the hospital for what ails us.

 

[JustMeSee]

I believe Paul wrote Corinthians, not God.

 

[Penumbra]

Consider.

Fornication:
voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.
source
​

Then look at: 1 Corinthians 6:18-20

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
​

And 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
​

My question is, just why does the physical coupling of the sexual organs of a male and female merit such disdain? People can certainly touch each other in other places without raising such condemnation, so what is it about these two organs that make them so wicked? It certainly can't be because they are the instruments of human reproduction. After all, god did tell his people to go out and multiply, and the only way to do so is to use the two. Can it be the pleasure one derives from the act? If so, why would any pleasure that harms no one be so harshly denounced?

Yet fornication somehow defiles the "temple of the Holy Ghost,"; however, within the confines of marriage the same act evidently does not? And even within this context its legitimacy is only granted begrudgingly.

Marriage is seen as not much more than a "better than nothing" sort of Fix. Simply consider the passage above. To paraphrase: "Men shouldn't have sexual relations with a woman, but because they can't help themselves they need to be married."

It's as if marriage itself does nothing to ameliorate the evil of sexual intercourse, it simply gives one a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. Which brings me back to my original question: just why does the physical coupling of the sexual organs of a male and female merit such disdain? Why does god hate it so much?

Oh yes, "God works in mysterious ways" won't cut it here.
(And please try to stay on subject and be nice so as not to get the thread closed. Thanks!)

Paul viewed marriage as a "better than nothing" sort of fix because at that time, merely decades after the death of Jesus, many Christians were under the strong impression that Jesus was coming back soon, such as within their lifetimes.

Long-term arrangements such as marriage were of little importance when the world was believed to be ending rather soon. This was why martyrdom was so popular. In a world that was going to end soon, personal spiritual perfection was of utmost importance, and Paul viewed marriage as a tool to keep those with strong sexual desires from burning.

As for why fornication is viewed as sinful in the first place, I have no idea. That's what they came up with I suppose. Paul got his line of thinking from pre-existing scriptures about sin.

-Lyn

 

[Washington]

I wish Christians would ask why more. You've nailed it. The truth is...God doesn't hate it so much. If you go to the Christian Philosophy and Ethics forum and search for this topic you'll find a wide-range of scriptural-based opinions. There are a few other Christians that agree with me...not many. The only way to know for sure is to go back to the oldest Greek source documents...where you'll find the Greek word that is translated to our 'fornication'. The definition of that word does not match the definition of our 'fornication'. There are many examples in the OT of folks that were on God's "good side" that had extra-marital sexual relations and those acts were not condemned by God.

CC

I'm not so concerned with derivation of "fornication" or its older meaning, but rather its intended meaning as decided by present day Bible interpreters.

For the Christian, everything can be related back to communion/eucharist. Marriage is a sacrament. It is also considered a martyrdom. You deny yourself for the sake of your spouse. You also aren't joined together with someone who also isn't in communion. When you engage in fornication- it is a proclamation that you are refusing to deny yourself for the sake of Christ and are choosing to engage your passions- you are knowingly excommunicating yourself.

Sounds nice, and it's easy to say these things but what is your justification in doing so? Where is it said that getting married puts one in a state of martyrdom? And in what manner does denying oneself result in effecting some important purpose for the spouse? And just why should anyone care if they're "joined together" (whatever that is) when neither is in communion? (not sure what you're referring to here either). And, of course, why should fornicating excommunicate one (another one that needs to be justified) from whatever?

When one is baptized into Christ they are part of the body of Christ- the temple of the Holy Spirit- receiving Christ in the Holy Mysteries. Willfully sinning in this manner is serious business- one risks their soul unless they repent and return to the hospital for what ails us.

That's all well and good, but you've not addressed the issue I raised. Why does god hold sexual intercourse in so low regard?

I believe Paul wrote Corinthians, not God.

Well, I don't really believe god wrote any of it. However, it's my understanding that Paul's writing in the Bible has god's stamp of approval as being the truth and correct. If Paul gave X thumbs down and it appears in the Bible then god also gives X thumbs down.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

 

[KCKID]

Well, I don't really believe god wrote any of it. However, it's my understanding that Paul's writing in the Bible has god's stamp of approval as being the truth and correct. If Paul gave X thumbs down and it appears in the Bible then god also gives X thumbs down.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

You do understand that it was the Torah - the only scripture available at the time - being spoken of here and not 2 Timothy 3:15-17?

 

[seashale76]

Sounds nice, and it's easy to say these things but what is your justification in doing so? Where is it said that getting married puts one in a state of martyrdom?

The inherent need for salvation. The Tradition of the Church tells us.

And in what manner does denying oneself result in effecting some important purpose for the spouse?

Asceticism is big in the Orthodoxy. The entire idea for everyone involved is to draw closer to God- attaining theosis.

And just why should anyone care if they're "joined together" (whatever that is) when neither is in communion? (not sure what you're referring to here either). And, of course, why should fornicating excommunicate one (another one that needs to be justified) from whatever?

Well some non-Christians apparently seem to care enough to ask questions on message boards- at any rate. Even still- the scriptures in question are written to Christians. To those who aren't Christians- the scriptures lead you to the truth of who Christ is. All sin (miss the mark), all need to repent and need communion with God. This is only possible through the Church= medicine for our spiritual illness. Like I said- it's ALL about the Eucharist- if one has Christ in them- one KNOWS when they sin in this manner- it's as good as a declaration of deconversion.

That's all well and good, but you've not addressed the issue I raised. Why does god hold sexual intercourse is so low regard?

Sexual intercourse in the proper context is fine. The idea is to love God more than your own passions.

I find that many people love to look at things from the perspective of God putting limitations on them- He doesn't. People have the freedom to do what they will and those of us in the Church know fully and completely what consequences our own actions bring on ourselves.

 

[Washington]

You do understand that it was the Torah - the only scripture available at the time - being spoken of here and not 2 Timothy 3:15-17?

Obviously, but are you implying that it does not apply to New Testament writings? That not everything in the NT "is God-breathed"?

 

[Washington]

The inherent need for salvation.

Tap dancing.

The Tradition of the Church tells us.

And I'm not surprised that's what it is.

Sexual intercourse in the proper context is fine.

Not the why Paul tells it. He paints it as more of an intrusive evil.

 

[seashale76]

Tap dancing.

And I'm not surprised that's what it is.

Not the why Paul tells it. He paints it as more of an intrusive evil.

The Church existed first with its Tradition- and the New Testament came later (also being firmly part of Tradition). The Tradition of the Church interprets scripture. I really don't think you have a clear idea of how and why Paul tells it as you have absolutely no context for it. Forgive me if that sounds a little condescending- however- as you aren't united to the body of Christ there is no way you could possibly have a context for it- unless you denied Christ from that position. Yet, your questions lead me to believe you are truly coming from a position of ignorance on that concept.

As always with these types of discussions- it is truly pointless for a Christian to attempt to discuss anything other than the existence of God and man's need of Him with non-Christians. Until that issue is resolved for you- we aren't even speaking the same language- it doesn't concern you and we may as well be speaking secret code.

 

[max1120]

Seashale

The idea I get is that much of what is in the bible dealing with issues such as fornacation is based upone traditions of the chruch and were the more the words of Paul than God. I do not think that god actually wants to condem all people who committ adultry to hell for all eteraty as some literalist would have us believe. I do not believe all the bible is infallable and somehow devine. As far as discussions with non-christians I think it a little sad that you basically say that there is no point in any discussion of scripture with them. sounds like you can only discuss things with those who agree with you.

Max

 

[chingchang]

I'm not so concerned with derivation of "fornication" or its older meaning, but rather its intended meaning as decided by present day Bible interpreters.

The intended meaning as decided by present day Bible interpreters is a "lighter" one than what the Catholic Church rolled with back in the day. If you study Church history on this topic you'll see why present-day Protestant Churches interpret as they do. If you're really curious...and not just looking for a debate...there are several books available on Amazon that show how what I believe is the truth conerning God's view of human sexuality. Here are a couple:

Amazon.com: Divine Sex: Liberating Sex from Religious Tradition (9781553954002): Philo Thelos: Books

Amazon.com: Sexual Liberation: The Scandal of Christendom (Psychology, Religion, and Spirituality) (9780275993733): Raymond J. Lawrence Jr.: Books

CC

 

[Steezie]

But fornication is fun

 

[seashale76]

Seashale

The idea I get is that much of what is in the bible dealing with issues such as fornacation is based upone traditions of the chruch and were the more the words of Paul than God. I do not think that god actually wants to condem all people who committ adultry to hell for all eteraty as some literalist would have us believe. I do not believe all the bible is infallable and somehow devine. As far as discussions with non-christians I think it a little sad that you basically say that there is no point in any discussion of scripture with them. sounds like you can only discuss things with those who agree with you.

Max

Go back and read please- you are reading what you want into what I wrote (a common malady here at CF I've found). One sins- one repents- one returns to communion. It can only be done in the hospital for sinners- Christ's Holy Church with the medicine for what ails us- the Eucharist. If a Christian sins and refuses to repent they excommunicate themselves and it is completely a self-condemnation. I wouldn't blame that on God.

There is no point in discussing issues of the faith (other than the critical issue) with people when they are currently incapable of understanding and/or not liking the answers they receive and refusing to acknowledge that it is their interpretation that is quite possibly the flawed one. Many non-Christians love to debate and argue around here- that's nice- many don't want a discussion because they already think they're right on all counts (it's okay- I think I'm right on almost all counts too). It makes absolutely nothing of what I said any less true.

I freely admit- my empathy certainly isn't shining through loud and clear tonight. However- I don't think this thread is the place for it- really. Occasionally- people need it laid out plainly. It's more honest- let's not beat around the bush.

 

[Washington]

The intended meaning as decided by present day Bible interpreters is a "lighter" one than what the Catholic Church rolled with back in the day. If you study Church history on this topic you'll see why present-day Protestant Churches interpret as they do. If you're really curious...and not just looking for a debate...there are several books available on Amazon that show how what I believe is the truth conerning God's view of human sexuality. Here are a couple:

Amazon.com: Divine Sex: Liberating Sex from Religious Tradition (9781553954002): Philo Thelos: Books

Amazon.com: Sexual Liberation: The Scandal of Christendom (Psychology, Religion, and Spirituality) (9780275993733): Raymond J. Lawrence Jr.: Books

CC

Thank you for the links. Although my interest doesn't extend that deep I do appreciate your effort.

 

[Verv]

I cannot believe people even ask this question -- it is utterly absurd to wonder why.

I am just going to make a shortlist for you:

Results of fornication:

(1) Unwanted pregnancy
(2) Unwanted disease
(3) Emotional confusion
(4) Jealousy
(5) Lack of self-esteem and self-respect
(6) Your children and teenagers putting themselves in foolish and jeopardizing positions.
(7) Hedonism

etc. etc.

I already know what your response is going to be...

"Condoms"

and

"but we can overcome jealousy."

Saying yuo can overcome jealousy is like saying you are not a greedy person while you own a car, a home and have a steady income.

I cannot wait to see this thread later.

You know what exactly makes this a bad world to be in? The attitude that we can do whatever we want short of murder, rape and theft; it is exactly this that makes a society which we abhor.

 

[Steezie]

I cannot believe people even ask this question -- it is utterly absurd to wonder why.

I am just going to make a shortlist for you:

Results of fornication:

(1) Unwanted pregnancy
(2) Unwanted disease
(3) Emotional confusion
(4) Jealousy
(5) Lack of self-esteem and self-respect
(6) Your children and teenagers putting themselves in foolish and jeopardizing positions.
(7) Hedonism

Ok, short answer to all this, STUPID fornication leads to these things.

1,2,7= Condoms and knowing your partner prevents this.
3,4,5= Completely arbitrary and unprovable. I fornicated plenty and didnt end up with these problems.
6= Pay attention to your children and take an active interest in their lives
7(b)= A little hedonism makes life fun.

Saying yuo can overcome jealousy is like saying you are not a greedy person while you own a car, a home and have a steady income.

Jealousy is not an all-binding emotion. It IS possible to overcome jealousy by being mature and approaching situation maturely. Also, simply being jealous is not necessarily a problem, its what you DO with it that causes problems.

You know what exactly makes this a bad world to be in? The attitude that we can do whatever we want short of murder, rape and theft; it is exactly this that makes a society which we abhor.

See I personally think a worse society is one where you cant do ANYTHING. Puritan ethics are scary.

 

[Washington]

I cannot believe people even ask this question -- it is utterly absurd to wonder why.

I am just going to make a shortlist for you:

Results of fornication:

(1) Unwanted pregnancy
(2) Unwanted disease
(3) Emotional confusion
(4) Jealousy
(5) Lack of self-esteem and self-respect
(6) Your children and teenagers putting themselves in foolish and jeopardizing positions.
(7) Hedonism

Nowhere in my OP did I say that those who fornicated were intrinsically stupid or mentally fragile people. That you assume they are is interesting.

You know what exactly makes this a bad world to be in? The attitude that we can do whatever we want short of murder, rape and theft; it is exactly this that makes a society which we abhor.

"We"?? Curious as to who else besides yourself abhors this society.

 

[Verv]

Ok, short answer to all this, STUPID fornication leads to these things.

1,2,7= Condoms and knowing your partner prevents this.
3,4,5= Completely arbitrary and unprovable. I fornicated plenty and didnt end up with these problems.
6= Pay attention to your children and take an active interest in their lives
7(b)= A little hedonism makes life fun.

Jealousy is not an all-binding emotion. It IS possible to overcome jealousy by being mature and approaching situation maturely. Also, simply being jealous is not necessarily a problem, its what you DO with it that causes problems.

See I personally think a worse society is one where you cant do ANYTHING. Puritan ethics are scary.

I had an active sexual relationship for a year, and after that I began having sex with women I took out on small dates; I found that I desired to have more and more sex, and often when intoxicated I would not have the safest of sex as was inevitable by the situation.

I also began seeing people as sex objects and lying to women in order to get into sexual relations with them.

I then had a woman tell me lies to enter into a sexual relationship with me.

this is just the tip of the iceberg for a young man.

Are you telling me you haven't had these issues?

And do you know what it feels like to look at someone with whose girlfriend you've had sex, and they are oblivious to it?

I think you attempt to divorce yourself this view that you can somehow live ideally you will UNDERSTAND what I am saying.
...

Hedonism ruins fun.

Nowhere in my OP did I say that those who fornicated were intrinsically stupid or mentally fragile people. That you assume they are is interesting.

It is natural to have confusing relations when engaged in an act that is meaningful. Even people who have healthy, good relationships of a sexual nature often hurt one another.

The fact that you assume having normal human problems makes someone STUPID OR MENTALLY FRAGILE is telling of you, Washington.

Washington, do you think I am stupid or fragile because of some of my issues?

I want to hear from someone who thinks the way you think.

"We"?? Curious as to who else besides yourself abhors this society.

Oh jeez, I don';t know Washington.

How about you go to a Christian Conservative website and just tally that up as generally having a similar outlook as myself.

What was this point of that little line, Washington?

Are you trying to fluster me, Washington?