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Flat out denial.

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by nonbeliever314, Jun 7, 2015.

  1. nonbeliever314

    nonbeliever314 ....grinding teeth.

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    I'm done trying to debate religious people. But I'll retire with a question and some discussion... What causes some of you, in the heat of a debate, to flat out deny things that are ridiculously obvious? Like when a scientist says "No, you're wrong, this is how this works....." etc, but you still take the original idea that you were just shown wrong about and still run with it? Why do you do that?
     
  2. Emmy

    Emmy Senior Veteran

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    Dear nonbeliever314. In Galatians 6: 7-8: we read: "God will not be mocked, what Man sows man will reap."
    That is straightforward, and cannot be denied. It is the way God teaches us. Jesus gives us good advice:
    In Matthew 22: 35-40: we are told: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." Experience tells us that this is perfectly true, however we treat people, we will be treated the same. It is also true that Love covers a multitude of sins, love and compassion will always make us victorious. If you have not found it so, try and you will find it so.
    You might not believe it, dear nonbeliever, but try it and find out for yourself. It is because God Loves us, we were given these truths, " treat all as you would love to be treated, and the answer is always the same: " you will reap what you sow." God made us in His Image, and because Adam and Eve let us down so badly, we find us now in this predicament. In time Jesus came and showed us a way to return to the men and women, which God made us in:
    To Love God with all our beings, and love our neighbour as we love ourselves. God is Love and God wants loving sons and daughters. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
     
  3. True Scotsman

    True Scotsman Objectivist

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    It's called faith.
     
  4. nonbeliever314

    nonbeliever314 ....grinding teeth.

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    I know it's faith. I'm just boggled by it. It's like being caught in a lie, you have that "uh oh" moment in your head, and then deliberately cover it up (in the case of the ones that scientifically try to debate). Like in the Carroll/Craig debate, Craig is shown wrong very clearly and then he stutters out, "maybe that's just his hunch, or....., hope", and you can totally tell. The behavior reminds me exactly of someone trying to cover up a lie, they walk all over their words, get hesitant, etc. So to me, it almost seems like the faithful ones that can reason consciously suppress their reasoning when they have to. (I guess this just turned into a psychology thread)
     
  5. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    A strong enough psychological need to believe something, is more than capable of building strong enough defense mechanisms, to flat out deny well evidenced reality.

    From that point, you also will have confirmation bias and selective reasoning as the follow up to this denial, to convince the person, the denial they are using, is A ok.

    For example, since around 99% of Phd biologists agree with the theory of evolution and they are clearly trained better than anyone to understand the evidence, a creationist will cling to that one out of a 100 person, who may have doubts and completely ignore the other 99 that explains the evidence.

    It can actually be quite entertaining to watch in action.
     
  6. True Scotsman

    True Scotsman Objectivist

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    I'm boggled by it too. But there is still value in debate. It helps you to clarify your own thinking. Because if you can't explain something to someone else then you don't really understand it yourself. That is why I do it.
     
  7. Kirsten

    Kirsten Active Member

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    Please give me an example of a scientist theorizing something I deny.
     
  8. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    If you can tell us if you deny or reject any scientific theories, that will clear it up for us.
     
  9. Kirsten

    Kirsten Active Member

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    You purport that I deny science. You must support your claim.
     
  10. TillICollapse

    TillICollapse Well-Known Member

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    "You cannot reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into."

    Although, quite literally, the semantics of this statement are questionable, you probably get the point.
     
  11. Kirsten

    Kirsten Active Member

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    And "reason" is subjective.
     
  12. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    When did I say you deny science, please quote me.

    This is why I asked, if you deny or reject any scientific theories.
     
  13. TillICollapse

    TillICollapse Well-Known Member

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    I would also think that if you expect someone in denial, to admit they are in denial, that can be a tall order.

    I think one thing the average non-believer may be taking for granted is the "double down" effect.

    A believer often banks on certain things being true, despite evidence to the contrary. Evidence to the contrary may often be seen as a "test" for that matter. When faced with such evidence of a test, a believer may think it more virtuous to "double down" and stick with their belief, as opposed to changing it. The more they can grip it, the more they prove their worth with their belief. Their belief can then stand the test, etc and so forth. To back down is to allow doubt to enter, and thus risk failing the test.

    If you begin to doubt and lack belief, I believe this is often seen as the beginning of a slope that leads straight to deception, believing in lies, lacking belief, and thus they may fall afoul of sin, or displease God, or risk their status with God (if they believe that's possible), etc. So for some, to even seriously question certain things is weakness. To double down and hold onto them despite everything to the contrary saying otherwise, is strength and virtue.
     
  14. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    The more objective independent evidence one uses to reach their conclusions, the less subjective their reasoning becomes.
     
  15. Kirsten

    Kirsten Active Member

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    Evidence is also subjective. Proof is required for something to be indisputable fact. Otherwise reason is merely an educated guess.

    .
     
  16. TillICollapse

    TillICollapse Well-Known Member

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    My post was directed at the OP.
     
  17. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    Denial is really a tool used to protect a belief or position, that the believer knows not to be well evidenced. That puts them in a spot of experiencing cognitive dissonance whenever presented with evidence that goes against their belief and the defense mechanism will be engaged to protect the belief.
     
  18. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    Objective evidence and facts are independent of anyone's subjective thoughts and exists and is there whether someone acknowledges it or not. Whether a person accepts the evidence or not is a different story.

    If there is a crime scene and DNA of the suspect is found at the scene, this evidence is objective and is not subjective.
     
  19. Kirsten

    Kirsten Active Member

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    Evidence is subjective. People claim there is no evidence to suggest there is a creator. Many believe that everything in existence is evidence of a creator. It all depends on your perception of the world around you.
     
  20. Kirsten

    Kirsten Active Member

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    Evidence is a bullet wound. Fact is finding the bullet. They are not one in the same.

    The evidence, however, does not prove what happened. It only offers several suggestions as to what may have happened. This leads to educated guesses.
     
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