Five Points or less?

[Bob Moore]

First, THANKS to Erin for opening this thread back up up.

Like what was said earler, you cannot believe in only a few points of calvinsm, because each point builds on the one before it.

Quite right.

I have a hard time believing in Calvins doctrine, becaue i have heard to much bad stuff about him.

It isn't Calvin's doctrine, Keith. He didn't invent it. It is what the scriptures say.
No doubt you have heard some things about Calvin the man that you don't like. But consider that King David was a murderer and adulterer. But the messiah still descended from him, and was called 'son of David' at least 18 times in the NT. So don't suppose that just because a man has faults (and Calvin did have some personal faults, as we all do) that God can not use him.

 

[Lambeth1595]

*MOD HAT ON*

Non-Reformed members are not permitted to debate in this forum. Please keep posts to fellowship or questions if you do not consider yourself Reformed.

*MOD HAT OFF*

What if you are a Reformed Anglican?

 

[Bob Moore]

Curious. What is a Reformed Anglican? I may be mistaken, but the two don't seem to go together.

 

[lmnop9876]

Curious. What is a Reformed Anglican? I may be mistaken, but the two don't seem to go together.

a reformed anglican would be, e.g. one from this church: http://www.recus.org/ . one that holds to the 39 articles, and other Reformed statements of faith from the Anglican tradition.

 

[Bob Moore]

a reformed anglican would be, e.g. one from this church: http://www.recus.org/ . one that holds to the 39 articles, and other Reformed statements of faith from the Anglican tradition.

Thank you. If I'd thought about it for a while I might have known it came out of the African church since God is doing so much there.

I would consider you 'reformed', pending further intelligence.

 

[DrWarfield]

T=Total Depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistable Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints

I was communicating with a reformed pastor who told me he was only four points.
Do you believe all five points?
If not, what do you have trouble with?

Feel free to PM me the answer if you do not feel like posting it.

I don't have any trouble with any of the five points. The "L" does cause difficulty for some because there are what seem to strong passages against it, for eg 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Peter 2:1, just to name a few. I do believe that each of these can be answered from a "limited atonement" (better referred as "Definate Atonement") position. But I will leave that for another time.

DrWarfield

 

[BBAS 64]

What if you are a Reformed Anglican?

Good Day, Lambeth1595

Talking about Reformed Anglican....

HAS ANYONE SEEN BULLDOG ????

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[erin74]

What if you are a Reformed Anglican?

sorry - I just saw this.

I assume you consider yourself reformed then. No problem with you posting here then.

Good to see another anglican around.

erin

 

[erin74]

I am still delaying further research into L to be honest.

I hold a Jesus death is sufficient for all, but efficient for some (ie the elect).

Is this anywhere near L? I wouldn't mind hearing a brief and simple explanation on where this might go wrong. But not a million links to other sites, cause honestly I just can't see me reading them at the moment (honesty is good right).

erin

 

[Bob Moore]

I am still delaying further research into L to be honest.

I hold a Jesus death is sufficient for all, but efficient for some (ie the elect).

Is this anywhere near L? I wouldn't mind hearing a brief and simple explanation on where this might go wrong. But not a million links to other sites, cause honestly I just can't see me reading them at the moment (honesty is good right).

erin

That's just exactly what limited atonement is. Sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect.

I think that people don't so much have a problem with the concept of election as they do with who controls it. God is in control and He chose His elect before the foundation of the world. The rest are reprobated. But the natural man, being spiritually dead yet desiring a measure of spirituality in his life, will insist that he can have as much or as little as he likes, and that it is entirely (or at least partly) up to him. Hence the idea of God picking and choosing is abhorent to him and he rejects the "L" out of hand.

If a man rejects limited atonement the conclusion is obvious: he thinks that he, not God, is in charge.

 

[erin74]

That's just exactly what limited atonement is. Sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect.

I think that people don't so much have a problem with the concept of election as they do with who controls it. God is in control and He chose His elect before the foundation of the world. The rest are reprobated. But the natural man, being spiritually dead yet desiring a measure of spirituality in his life, will insist that he can have as much or as little as he likes, and that it is entirely (or at least partly) up to him. Hence the idea of God picking and choosing is abhorent to him and he rejects the "L" out of hand.

If a man rejects limited atonement the conclusion is obvious: he thinks that he, not God, is in charge.

so I'm not a 4 pointer then.... or 4.5 as dh puts it!

I really don't get why people think it's bad that God chooses us - if God is not in control.... then who is.....

 

[Bob Moore]

so I'm not a 4 pointer then.... or 4.5 as dh puts it!

You are a a Calvinist, or as Spurgeon put it, a Biblical Christian.

I really don't get why people think it's bad that God chooses us - if God is not in control.... then who is.....

Some think it bad because they want to be in control. Others think it is bad because they see it as somhow unfair.

 

[Lambeth1595]

Curious. What is a Reformed Anglican? I may be mistaken, but the two don't seem to go together.

A reformed Anglican is a true Churchman. Archbishop Thomas Cranmer was a reformed Anglican as was Archbishop Ussher and Archbishop Whitgift. We are episcopalian in structure and presbyterian in theology but FYI the Westminster Confession of 1646 was based upon the (Anglican) Irish Articles of 1615 (see relevant thread).

 

[Lambeth1595]

The most helpful statement on Limited atonement is: http://www.prca.org/fivepoints/chapter3.html

 

[McWilliams]

The most helpful statement on Limited atonement is: http://www.prca.org/fivepoints/chapter3.html

Was not J.C. Ryle Reformed Anglican?

 

[Lambeth1595]

Was not J.C. Ryle Reformed Anglican?

Yes and no. He was indeed Low Church but he was not a Calvinist, more an amyraldian.