Five Point or Four Point

[kimlva]

On Passover eve in Egypt a Hebrew home where a passover lamb was slain but the blood was not applied to the doorpost was a house still under judgment and the first born of that house would be dead the next day.

May I ask where the Bible either says or implies that a lamb was slain in any home in which the blood was not applied?

Another thing I like to refer to is the high priest making atonement for the sins of Israel on the Day of Atonement. When he went in to make the sacrifice, it was with the names of the 12 tribes only. He was not making atonement for anybody else in the world. Only for those particular people.

 

[mlqurgw]

drstevej; I wholeheartedly agree with you that logic should never trump proper exegesis. We ought never to determine the meaning of a passage according to logic if the passage seems to be teaching something other than what logically follows in our system of doctrine. Logic doesn't determine what the Scriptures say. The Scriptures are not to be made to bow to our logic.
At the same time should we not exegete according to the preponderance of Scripture? If our exegesis of a passage goes against what the Scriptures as a whole teach ought we not question our exegesis? For the past few days I have been working on a post I hope will bring to light some of what the Scriptures teach concerning the atonement of Christ. I expect to get it done soon and post it. I ask that you give me a chance to show from the Scriptures particular redemption. I will not debate with you on this but love and respect you and others on this board enough to desire to show you what I believe the Scriptures teach on this issue. I ask your patience.

 

[drstevej]

May I ask where the Bible either says or implies that a lamb was slain in any home in which the blood was not applied?

I was presenting a hypothetical.

And they shall take of the blood, and strike [it] on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye [are]: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy [you] when I smite the land of Egypt.

The focus is upon the blood applied.

Another thing I like to refer to is the high priest making atonement for the sins of Israel on the Day of Atonement. When he went in to make the sacrifice, it was with the names of the 12 tribes only. He was not making atonement for anybody else in the world. Only for those particular people.

When the High Priest made atonement for the 12 tribes does that imply that every member of all twelve tribes was saved?

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 

[kimlva]

When the High Priest made atonement for the 12 tribes does that imply that every member of all twelve tribes was saved?

Hebrews 10:4
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

No one was saved by it. But it did what it was supposed to do, temporary "forgiveness," (forgiveness is not the word I want, but cannot think of it right now) for all the members. That is why it had to be done over and over again.

 

[mlqurgw]

I hope you don't mind if I answer you. I don't mean to debate with you but I do have answers to your points that I believe may be helpful.

I was presenting a hypothetical.

The problem with hypotheticals is that they rarely deal with facts. The question should never be what could have been but what actually is. They may be useful in exercising the mind but we still must come back to the facts.

The focus is upon the blood applied.

I would respectfully diagree. You actually bolded the part that give the passage it meaning. The focus is on God seeing the blood. He didn't say when you see the blood but when I see the blood. God doesn't forgive us on the basis of our seeing the blood of Christ as the atonement for our sin but on the basis of His seeing the blood as our atonement for sin. We see the blood because He has already seen it.

When the High Priest made atonement for the 12 tribes does that imply that every member of all twelve tribes was saved?

Yes it does in the same typical manner that all the sacrifices imply atonement. That blood that the High Priest sprinkled every year never took away sin as we are taught in Hebrews. They simply typified that one sacrifice for sin that would. In typical manner everyone represented by the High Priest was considered covered by the sacrifice.

 

[drstevej]

Hebrews 10:4
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

No one was saved by it. But it did what it was supposed to do, temporary "forgiveness," (forgiveness is not the word I want, but cannot think of it right now) for all the members. That is why it had to be done over and over again.

I realize that the Day of Atonement was annual and repeated but that was not my point.

Take the case of Joe Israelite. He was born into the nation and circumcised yet never trusted in the promises. He was just a part of the crowd of the circumcised....

Did the Annual Day of atonement cover his sins each year?
When he died what was his eternal destination?

Are all OT physical descendants of Abraham assurred of eternal life? Or was the Day of Atonement sufficient for all 12 tribes yet efficient only for those who believe?

Actually, your illustration, assuming you do not believe every single OT descendant of Abraham whether they believed the promises or not is heaven bound, fits Amyraldianism quite well.

 

[kimlva]

I realize that the Day of Atonement was annual and repeated but that was not my point.

Take the case of Joe Israelite. He was born into the nation and circumcised yet never trusted in the promises. He was just a part of the crowd of the circumcised....

Did the Annual Day of atonement cover his sins each year?
When he died what was his eternal destination?

Are all OT physical descendants of Abraham assurred of eternal life? Or was the Day of Atonement sufficient for all 12 tribes yet efficient only for those who believe?

Actually, your illustration, assuming you do not believe every single OT descendant of Abraham whether they believed the promises or not is heaven bound, fits Amyraldianism quite well.

See the post by Ron that he evidently posted at the same time as you. And stop using those big words! My brain doesn't recognize words with more than 12 letters.

As to your last sentence, (minus the big word, of course), as I said. Not a single person was heaven bound based on those sacrifices. However, as I stated, those sacrifices were efficient for their intended purpose for every individual.

 

[drstevej]

Hi kimlva,

Calvinists like long words... supralapsarian is 14 letters .

I am not sure you or Ron got my point, but that's OK.

I believe there are some who were genetic descendants of Abraham who are non elect. The Day of Atonement (which is a type of Christ's Atonement) was sufficient for each and every one but it is of no eternal benefit to them apart from justifying faith.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

In Him,
Steve

FWIW - Amyraldian (= 4 point Calvinism)

 

[McWilliams]

Dont want to interupt here but please explain how this can be?

no eternal benefit to them apart from justifying faith

.

 

[mlqurgw]

Hi kimlva,

Calvinists like long words... supralapsarian is 14 letters .

I am not sure you or Ron got my point, but that's OK.

I believe there are some who were genetic descendants of Abraham who are non elect. The Day of Atonement (which is a type of Christ's Atonement) was sufficient for each and every one but it is of no eternal benefit to them apart from justifying faith.



In Him,
Steve

FWIW - Amyraldian (= 4 point Calvinism)

I understood your point. That is why I answered as I did concerning hypotheticals. What ifs are really of no value in determining truth. We must deal with what does the Scriptures actually teach. As I said, I hope to be able to show this in the post I have been working on. Again I ask your patience. I am trying to choose my words carefully and as I am insufficient to the work it is an uphill battle.

 

[kimlva]

supralapsarian is 14 letters

Hey, I know that one, but only because I am one!
So don't be calling me bad names!

 

[erin74]

Thank you Steve. I hope I haven't caused too much of a battle though.
I think I understand the distinction you are making now. I think I need to go and read some more bible to work on this one.

 

[Tinstar]

I have been a 5 pointer for 15 years. I didn't believe in the L from the teaching of the scriptures rather by calvanistic instruction. The scritures plainly said He died for all. I believed what I was told and hince a 5 pointer. Just in the last few days have I come to question limited Atonement. One red flag is the explaining away of about 15 sciptures that clearly say He died for all. Another is that Calvin didn't believe it and that the church fathers apparently didn't teach it but arrived with the reformation.

Man I am seeing some red flags. Also everything about God doesn't have to fit into some calvanistic box. God is bigger than a box that a human mind can put together.

I'm still not convinced and you sure can be a 4 pointer they exist all over the world.

 

[Tinstar]

Here. to believe in limited atonement we must now make excuses why these verses don't mean what they seem to mean.

1Jo 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
Joh 4:42 And they said to the woman, We no longer believe because of your saying; for we ourselves have heard, and we know that this One is truly the Savior of the world, the Christ.
Joh 1:29 On the morrow, John sees Jesus coming toward him and said, Behold! The Lamb of God, taking away the sin of the world!
2Co 5:19 as, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not charging their deviations to them, and having put the Word of reconciliation in us.
1Jo 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation relating to our sins, and not relating to ours only, but also relating to all the world.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 12:47 And if anyone hears My Words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come that I might judge the world, but that I might save the world.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you in the first place what I also received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures,
1Ti 2:6 the One having given Himself a ransom on behalf of all, the testimony to be given in its own time,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord of the promise is not slow, as some deem slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not having purposed any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
Tit 2:11 For the saving grace of God has appeared to all men,
Luk 14:23 And the lord said to the slave, Go out into the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled.
Eze 18:32 For I do not have delight in the death of him who dies, declares the Lord Jehovah. So turn and live.
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses has not given you the bread out of Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread out of Heaven. said this to those who rejected him.
1Ti 4:10 for to this we also labor and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Heb 2:9 but we do see Jesus crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death was made a little less than the angels, so that by the grace of God He might taste of death for all.
2Pe 2:1 But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and denying the Master who has bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Heb 10:29 how much worse punishment do you think will be thought worthy to receive, the one trampling the Son of God, and having counted common the blood of the covenant in which he was sanctified, and having insulted the Spirit of Grace?
Rev 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy are You to receive the scroll, and to open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood purchased us to God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

whosoever verses:
Act 2:21 "And it shall be that everyone who shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Joel 2:28-32
Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all those laboring and being burdened, and I will give you rest.
Joh 7:37 And in the last day of the great feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
Joh 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in, and will go out, and will find pasture.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life. The one believing into Me, though he die, he shall live.
Joh 11:26 And everyone living and believing into Me shall not die to the age, never! Do you believe this?
Joh 20:31 But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Act 10:43 To this One all the Prophets witness, so that through His name everyone believing into Him will receive remission of sins.
Act 13:38 Then let it be known to you, men, brothers, that through this One remission of sin is announced to you.
Act 13:39 And everyone believing in this One is justified from all things which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek;
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him will not be put to shame." Isa. 28:16
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich toward all the ones calling on Him.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And the one hearing, let him say, Come! And the one thirsting, let him come; and the one desiring, let him take of the water of life freely.
Rom 10:13 For everyone, "whoever may call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Joel 2:32

 

[HamletsChoice]

I have been a 5 pointer for 15 years. I didn't believe in the L from the teaching of the scriptures rather by calvanistic instruction. The scritures plainly said He died for all. I believed what I was told and hince a 5 pointer. Just in the last few days have I come to question limited Atonement. One red flag is the explaining away of about 15 sciptures that clearly say He died for all. Another is that Calvin didn't believe it and that the church fathers apparently didn't teach it but arrived with the reformation.

Man I am seeing some red flags. Also everything about God doesn't have to fit into some calvanistic box. God is bigger than a box that a human mind can put together.

I'm still not convinced and you sure can be a 4 pointer they exist all over the world.

Tinstar,

Not trying to put everything "in a box" for you by any stretch but just wanted to make sure you have seen how Scripture interprets Scripture in the context of "all men" and "the world."

The words "all men" is used in Scripture to mean:

1) Every single man and woman
2) Every single man only
3) All nations and races
4) Every man and woman from Israel
5) Every man only from Israel
6) A great number of people (but not every single person on Earth)
7) Men from every station in life (rich and poor; ordinary and rulers; or "types of men.")

You need to see the context of how "all men" is used in order to understand what "all men" means in any particular verse.

Lets take a look at a few examples, ok?

MAR 1:37 And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.

This means a great number of Israelites, it does not means every single person on earth.

LUK 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

This means a great number of lost people, it does not mean every single person on earth.

JOH 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

This does mean every single man and woman on earth.

LUK 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

This means all lost men and women, not every single person on earth.

ACT 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

This means men and women from every nation and race, it does not mean every single person on earth.

ACT 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

This means all the believers in this church only, it does not mean every single person on earth.

ACT 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

This means all the men and women who saw the miracle or knew the man who was healed in Jerusalem, it does not mean every single person on earth.

ACT 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

This means all the men and women in the town that only happened to be present, it does not mean every single person on earth.

1CO 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

This means all "types of men and women" and certain men and women who were "Jews and Gentiles," it does not mean every single person on earth (many were not pleased with Paul....lol).

1TI 2:1-2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

This means "all types of men," men from every station of life, it does not mean every single person on earth.

And finally the verse, "I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32

I believe this verse means not just men, but men and women from every nation on earth and therefore not just the Israelites anymore. This was a major change of events that Christ was ushering in and therefore preaching about. It was now salvation for the Gentiles!

We of course know that millions of men and women have died in their sins and are therefore in hell now without ever having heard the Gospel from the time of Christ's crucifixtion until now, so we know Christ could not possibly have meant every single person on Earth from the date of His crucifixtion until today would be drawn to Him.

Therefore the use of "all men" in this verse must be the same way the Holy Spirit uses "all men" throughout all of Scripture i.e., as a selective population.

"World" is used throughout Scripture to mean:

1) Evil people only
2) Roman Empire only
3) The lost only
4) Numerous people of a small region only
5) Gentiles only
6) Saved Gentiles only

With this voluminous use of the word "world" throughout Scripture to mean only narrow and specific groups of people we should not always assume it means every single person who ever lived on earth.

ISA 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
LUK 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
LUK 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
JOH 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
JOH 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

JOH 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

JOH 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

JOH 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

JOH 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

JOH 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

JOH 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

JOH 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

ACT 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

ACT 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

ROM 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

ROM 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

1JO 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1JO 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1JO 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

 

[Iosias]

Tinstar,

Not trying to put everything "in a box" for you by any stretch but just wanted to make sure you have seen how Scripture interprets Scripture in the context of "all men" and "the world."

The words "all men" is used in Scripture to mean:

1) Every single man and woman
2) Every single man only
3) All nations and races
4) Every man and woman from Israel
5) Every man only from Israel
6) A great number of people (but not every single person on Earth)
7) Men from every station in life (rich and poor; ordinary and rulers; or "types of men.")

You need to see the context of how "all men" is used in order to understand what "all men" means in any particular verse.

Lets take a look at a few examples, ok?

MAR 1:37 And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.

This means a great number of Israelites, it does not means every single person on earth.

LUK 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

This means a great number of lost people, it does not mean every single person on earth.

JOH 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

This does mean every single man and woman on earth.

LUK 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

This means all lost men and women, not every single person on earth.

ACT 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

This means men and women from every nation and race, it does not mean every single person on earth.

ACT 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

This means all the believers in this church only, it does not mean every single person on earth.

ACT 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

This means all the men and women who saw the miracle or knew the man who was healed in Jerusalem, it does not mean every single person on earth.

ACT 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

This means all the men and women in the town that only happened to be present, it does not mean every single person on earth.

1CO 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

This means all "types of men and women" and certain men and women who were "Jews and Gentiles," it does not mean every single person on earth (many were not pleased with Paul....lol).

1TI 2:1-2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

This means "all types of men," men from every station of life, it does not mean every single person on earth.

And finally the verse, "I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32

I believe this verse means not just men, but men and women from every nation on earth and therefore not just the Israelites anymore. This was a major change of events that Christ was ushering in and therefore preaching about. It was now salvation for the Gentiles!

We of course know that millions of men and women have died in their sins and are therefore in hell now without ever having heard the Gospel from the time of Christ's crucifixtion until now, so we know Christ could not possibly have meant every single person on Earth from the date of His crucifixtion until today would be drawn to Him.

Therefore the use of "all men" in this verse must be the same way the Holy Spirit uses "all men" throughout all of Scripture i.e., as a selective population.

"World" is used throughout Scripture to mean:

1) Evil people only
2) Roman Empire only
3) The lost only
4) Numerous people of a small region only
5) Gentiles only
6) Saved Gentiles only

With this voluminous use of the word "world" throughout Scripture to mean only narrow and specific groups of people we should not always assume it means every single person who ever lived on earth.

ISA 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
LUK 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
LUK 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
JOH 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
JOH 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

JOH 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

JOH 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

JOH 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

JOH 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

JOH 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

JOH 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

JOH 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

ACT 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

ACT 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

ROM 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

ROM 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

1JO 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1JO 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1JO 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Good post

 

[erin74]

Just got a review on "The Death of Death" to read. Discovered that our dear friends who moved away from here on Boxing Day are 5 pointers (he's the presbyterian minister). To think all this year I could have been harassing him for an explanation.

We had a good discussion on this on Christmas Day. I think this article may really further that and confirm that discussion. Looking forward to it.

I think finding myself defending L against my dh's assistant made me realise that it has a lot of merit.

 

[cygnusx1]

It is difficult to understand how anyone knowing about the last events of Judas Iscariot , son of perdition , could ever believe in Indefinite , Universal , General atonement . That would mean Christ knew for certain Judas was going to hell and then died for him , in particular , in absolute vain.

 

[HamletsChoice]

Just got a review on "The Death of Death" to read. Discovered that our dear friends who moved away from here on Boxing Day are 5 pointers (he's the presbyterian minister). To think all this year I could have been harassing him for an explanation.

We had a good discussion on this on Christmas Day. I think this article may really further that and confirm that discussion. Looking forward to it.

I think finding myself defending L against my dh's assistant made me realise that it has a lot of merit.

I plagerized both the idea and most of the biblical references in my post above from Owen's "Death of Death." What a great book!

 

[Iosias]

I think finding myself defending L against my dh's assistant made me realise that it has a lot of merit.

Glad to hear it