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Five Point or Four Point

DiscipleOfIAm

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I'm on the fence about Limited Atonement of the TULIP. I'm leaning towards being a Four Point Calvinist.

Can one be a Four Point Calvinist? I read an article that argues you cannot. It said if you reject Limited Atonement, the others cannot stand.

What say you? What are you? Four or Five?

God Bless!
 

xapis

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Cajun Huguenot

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I'm on the fence about Limited Atonement of the TULIP. I'm leaning towards being a Four Point Calvinist.

Can one be a Four Point Calvinist? I read an article that argues you cannot. It said if you reject Limited Atonement, the others cannot stand.

What say you? What are you? Four or Five?

God Bless!
I can think of two very prominent/famous four point Calvinists or Amyraldites, They are Rev. Richard Baxter of (Reformed Pastor fame) and SR's own Dr. Steve.

I guess you can be a Four-pointer. I think it is inconsistent, but lots of folks brighter than I am have disagreed with me on that point.

In Christ,
Kenith
 
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mlqurgw

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To me they all stand or fall together. There are many reasons I believe that particular redemption is both Scriptural and true. Not the least of which is any other view makes the atonement of Christ something other than an actual atonement and makes His suretyship pointless. BTW, I do not hold to the sufficient for all but efficient for some view. I believe it is dealing in hypotheticals that have no usefulness but to give theologians something to debate.
 
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cygnusx1

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I'm on the fence about Limited Atonement of the TULIP. I'm leaning towards being a Four Point Calvinist.

Can one be a Four Point Calvinist? I read an article that argues you cannot. It said if you reject Limited Atonement, the others cannot stand.

What say you? What are you? Four or Five?

God Bless!

I can see why some Christians are 4 pointers , they seem to have some scriptures on their side , and at first glance preaching the Gospel to everyone seems to imply an unlimited atonement , after all it is the person and work of Christ that sinners are to put their faith in.

However , a real study of the words used about the work of Christs atonement will show it is definite (literally deals with sin) and an indefinite atonement cannot save anyone.

Either our sins have been "blotted out" and God is "Propitiated" or He is not and we are still in our sins.

Other arguements relating to the words "all" and "world" can be shown from scripture to be less than universal.

Greetings Cygnus. :wave:
 
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Iosias

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I'm on the fence about Limited Atonement of the TULIP. I'm leaning towards being a Four Point Calvinist.

Can one be a Four Point Calvinist? I read an article that argues you cannot. It said if you reject Limited Atonement, the others cannot stand.

What say you? What are you? Four or Five?

God Bless!

If you deny limited atonement then you are an Amyraldian and this leads by logic to neonomianism.

Denying limited atonement means you deny that the death of Christ was satisfactory, vicarious and efficacious as I argue here:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=29036368&postcount=1
 
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mlqurgw

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Ok. I'm going to bite on this. Why not?
To claim that the blood of Christ was sufficient for all the world but efficient for the elect only is nothing more than using hypothetcal nonsense in order to appease those who disagree. The truth is simply that He made an atonement for all He intended to make an atonement and no more. If He had intended to make an atonement for all men then certainly His blood would have been sufficient but that was not His intent. To try and argue that it could have been is pointless.
 
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xapis

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Because it is unscriptural! How would you prove it?

Being relatively new to Calvinism, still learning it and not yet fit for teaching it, I can only tell you why this teaching aided me in coming to accept the point of "Limited Atonement."

It was undeniable (to me) that the atonement could have been efficient for ALL MANKIND. I know it's theoretical. But Christ, being God, was a sufficient sacrifice for all mankind. I think the Bible bears that out. And to refute universalism, we must also recognize that the Bible is clear that the atonement is only efficacious for the elect... with that being said, I don't have a problem with the statement.

You guys may change my mind here though. :)

Blessings.
 
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xapis

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To claim that the blood of Christ was sufficient for all the world but efficient for the elect only is nothing more than using hypothetcal nonsense in order to appease those who disagree. The truth is simply that He made an atonement for all He intended to make an atonement and no more. If He had intended to make an atonement for all men then certainly His blood would have been sufficient but that was not His intent. To try and argue that it could have been is pointless.

It sounds like we actually agree on this in principle... the disagreement being only semantical. Perhaps?
 
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mlqurgw

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It sounds like we actually agree on this in principle... the disagreement being only semantical. Perhaps?
Telling sinners what might have been does them no good. Tell them what He actually did and that is indeed good news.
 
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McWilliams

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We can conclude this section with the following summary argument. Which of these statements is true?
1. Christ died for some of the sins of all men.

2. Christ died for all the sins of some men.

3. Christ died for all the sins of all men.
No one says that the first is true, for then all would be lost because of the sins that Christ did not die for. The only way to be saved from sin is for Christ to cover it with his blood.

The third statement is what the Arminians would say. Christ died for all the sins of all men. But then why are not all saved? They answer, Because some do not believe. But is this unbelief not one of the sins for which Christ died? If they say yes, then why is it not covered by the blood of Jesus and all unbelievers saved? If they say no (unbelief is not a sin that Christ has died for) then they must say that men can be saved without having all their sins atoned for by Jesus, or they must join us in affirming statement number two: Christ died for all the sins of some men. That is, he died for the unbelief of the elect so that God's punitive wrath is appeased toward them and his grace is free to draw them irresistibly out of darkness into his marvelous light.
(John Piper)
 
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heymikey80

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Being relatively new to Calvinism, still learning it and not yet fit for teaching it, I can only tell you why this teaching aided me in coming to accept the point of "Limited Atonement."

It was undeniable (to me) that the atonement could have been efficient for ALL MANKIND. I know it's theoretical. But Christ, being God, was a sufficient sacrifice for all mankind. I think the Bible bears that out. And to refute universalism, we must also recognize that the Bible is clear that the atonement is only efficacious for the elect... with that being said, I don't have a problem with the statement.
Yes, I'd also agree with that.

There's nothing more that need be added since the Crucifixion, to save another person.

I think mqurlgw's point is that it doesn't seem to address the point under discussion, but it only comments on a more general point, dissipating the point in Reformed theology. This, if I take him to mean what Calvin meant. Calvin himself was annoyed by this bit of philosophizing:
Now we will not permit the common solution of this question to avail on the present occasion, which would have it that Christ suffered sufficiently for all men, but effectually for His elect alone. This great absurdity, by which our monk has procured for himself so much applause amongst his own fraternity, has no weight whatever with me. John does indeed extend the benefits of the atonement of Christ, which was completed by His death, to all the elect of God throughout what climes of the world soever they may be scattered. But though the case be so, it by no means alters the fact that the reprobate are mingled with the elect in the world. It is also a fact, without controversy, that Christ came to atone for the sins " of the whole world." But the solution of all difficulty is immediately at hand, in the truth and fact, that it is " whosoever believeth in Him" that " shall not perish, but shall have eternal life." For our present question is, not what the power or virtue of Christ is, nor what efficacy it has in itself, but who those are to whom He gives Himself to be enjoyed. Now if the possession of Christ stands in faith, and if faith flows from the Spirit of adoption, it follows that he alone is numbered of God among His children who is designed of God to be a partaker of Christ. Eternal Predestination, p. 165
We really need to shift to the Calvinist meaning behind the "L" to discuss this, too: namely, Definite or Particular Atonement. Even arminianism is a Limited Atonement: only universalism is an unlimited atonement.

Amyrauldianism is one way to deal with five-point Calvinism; technically it straddles the span between 4 & 5 points in hypothetical universalism.

In other words, there are real, live 4-pointers out there too, who don't accept that there're definite individuals atoned-for. I've never figured out what other points mean when this is held, though: how do you have unconditional election and an indefinite atonement?

God picks unconditionally -- and so He picks specific people. If God didn't pick specific people, and there's not a single thing people can do to make God choose them, how would it be that not everyone's saved or condemned?

Other points are equally problematic. If the Spirit is effective at calling people, and the atonement isn't specific, why won't the Spirit be effective in calling all people to Christ?
 
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Iosias

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It was undeniable (to me) that the atonement could have been efficient for ALL MANKIND. I know it's theoretical. But Christ, being God, was a sufficient sacrifice for all mankind. I think the Bible bears that out. And to refute universalism, we must also recognize that the Bible is clear that the atonement is only efficacious for the elect... with that being said, I don't have a problem with the statement.

Why hold to the theoretical? What verses do you rely upon? God is perfect and so his plan is perfect and he planned that the death of Christ would save his people from their sins. That is perfection. To say that Christ hypothetically died for all denies this perfection of God's plan and we must remember that what matters is what God did, has done, will do and not what God hypothetically did, has done and will do. Christ died 2000 years ago upon a cross. His death was real and not hypothetical and so when approaching this issue we must ask "what did Christ do?"

I hope my point is clear :)
 
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JimfromOhio

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I truly believe in "limited atonement" because to me, this is not really related to my issue with "election".

This is my view of "limited atonement". Christ's atonement which is the actual work, for whoever believe. We believe this is limited to those who believe and were chosen by God, whereas the Arminian side of it would say that everybody’s sins have been paid for. To me Arminian believes that Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of people who don’t believe. That’s the problem I am having because if your sins are paid for already by Jesus and you go to hell, then that’s double jeopardy. It is TRUE that Christ died on the Cross for EVERYONE !! The atonement basically means whoever Believe in Christ will not perish and those who do not believe in Christ will NOT get the benefit of Christ's atonement. Christ's purpose to die for everyone but the atonement is only limited to those who accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior.
 
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