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If he's "overcoming our natural resistance" to grace, that's the same thing as wearing us down.That's accurate. Regeneration precedes grace. No wearing down.
One cooperated with God's grace freely. He could have said no as well.How many people responded to God's grace when Noah warned them of God's judgement?
One cooperated with God's grace freely. He could have said no as well.
When I said one, I was referring to Noah responding to God.Not one person responded to the call of Noah. Zero. If that is not in the least bit intriguing to you, and you can't admit that, I am left wondering whether or not you are being intellectually honest in this discussion.
I get it if folks disagree with Reformed Theology. I really do. What I don't get is why we aren't challenged on what we actually teach and believe. That part makes no sense, especially coming from other believers. I thought that integrity in these discussions should be paramount. Otherwise, it's not iron sharpening iron. It's something else.
Then let's you put it into your own words. Please answer yes/no, and then elaborate.I also can fully understand that someone would disagree with God's sovereignty in election, in the manner in which is put forth by Reformed Theology, but I can't understand intentionally misrepresenting it, and the utter unwillingness to hear what our position even is. If another Christian were to tell me that I had gotten his position wrong, I would first apologize, and second ask him to make another attempt at explaining it. In the end, I might insist that his position is wrong, but I would not insist that I understand his position when he has just told me that I hadn't.
As if the two have not been presented as one and the same?
My quarrel isn't with Scripture because in its full context I believe it is quite clear that the scriptures acknowledge that many do not know the Lord, but it is also clear, to me, that the Lord loves all and does not wish for any to perish but wants all to be saved. I can't believe anybody is born who is beyond redemption. So we can amicably agree to disagree on that one.
Then let's you put it into your own words. Please answer yes/no, and then elaborate.
Scripture tells us it is not the choice of man that they are given mercy and born of God.
Scripture tells us it is God's mercy that actually saves us. This is not of ourselves, God is absolute in His word, this is not a area having any grays.
If you read the whole thing as intended, you'll see his point. Regeneration precedes faith. You shouldn't take things out of context.If he's "overcoming our natural resistance" to grace, that's the same thing as wearing us down.
So no?It's a METAPHOR
Scripture tells us it is not the choice of man that they are given mercy and born of God.
Scripture tells us it is God's mercy that actually saves us. This is not of ourselves, God is absolute in His word, this is not a area having any grays.
If the elect are automatically on their way to heaven and are unable to resist the Lord, there is no purpose in attending church or preaching the Gospel, no value in teaching the Bible, no point in evangelism or going into all the world to create disciples.
As soon as puppets gets used, you know that they don't understand.This clearly demonstrates that you do not understand Reformed theology.
God uses *means* to call His elect. The proclamation of the gospel is necessary and prescribed by Christ. The Holy Spirit, through the Word, is the way regeneration takes place.
You don't believe God saying no one seeks Him?I fully understand the Calvinist doctrine, have studied it, have taught it within the context of comparative religions.
I think in a nutshell the following from my own teaching materials sums up the doctrine of Calvinism:
1. Total Depravity. As a result of the Fall, mankind is no longer capable of believing the gospel. He is unable to repent and believe.
2. Unconditional Election. Therefore, before he made the world, God selected those he would save.
3. Limited Atonement. Jesus bore the full punishment for the sins of humankind ensuring their final salvation. His sacrifice does not cover the non-elect.
4. Efficacious Grace. God's Grace revives the otherwise spiritually dead among the elect, imparts a new nature, and draws the sinner to Christ. Regeneration or the news birth occurs before belief in Christ. The elect have no part in this process.
5. Final Perseverance. The elect who are called by God's grace will be saved and will never fall away and perish.
I as a semi-quasi professional Bible scholar once also did a lot of proof texting when teaching Bible--pluck a passage out of the whole text and apply it to some issue of the day. I had no problem just shrugging off all the applications that bit of scripture did not address or when circumstances explained in other scripture would contradict my interpretation of the scripture which would not be applicable in other situations.
So I eventually had to acknowledge the logical fallacy of applying scripture intended to address a specific point as literally applicable to all situations. So often it is not.
So I learned to back off and see the whole in context and also the purpose for which the scripture was intended by the writer. A passage that addresses a specific issue will almost always contain a universal truth, but it cannot specifically be applied to more than that specific issue.
Even disregarding all the 70 some Biblical passage that can be interpreted as assuring us that God does not will that any should perish. . .
. . . I can see that within the context and purposes for which they were written, the passages in say Romans that seem to support the predestination doctrine actually do not as Paul explains in Chapter 11.
Of course the Calvinist will argue that he is still speaking of the elect. And I will continue to say that the Lord I know, the Lord I have a relationship with, did not create souls to suffer unspeakable suffering amidst the chaos we humans have created on Earth if there was no greater purpose for those souls, no possibility of salvation, no chance for eternal life. And there is no getting around that creating people specifically to suffer with no hope of redemption would be unspeakably cruel.
If the elect are automatically on their way to heaven and are unable to resist the Lord, there is no purpose in attending church or preaching the Gospel, no value in teaching the Bible, no point in evangelism or going into all the world to create disciples. There is no value in prayer because everything is going to be the way it is going to be no matter what we do. We are all simply puppets preordained in every thought and movement with no ability to choose anything.
The Lord I know is a loving God and I am absolutely certain that I have complete choice in whether to love and serve Him or not.
God shows mercy to His people who are under covenant with Him. That is true.Where does scripture show us it's NOT the choice of man? Here's what I read -
Exodus 20:6
but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:10
but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Deuteronomy 7:9
Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
God show mercy to all who keep His commandments, a choice of man. It is actually your doctrine by which God shows no mercy.
God shows mercy to His people who are under covenant with Him. That is true.
All those quotes are for the OT saints who are OF God.
And the OC has passed away, we are now in a much better NC relationship.
This clearly demonstrates that you do not understand Reformed theology.
God uses *means* to call His elect. The proclamation of the gospel is necessary and prescribed by Christ. The Holy Spirit, through the Word, is the way regeneration takes place.
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