• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

First real image of a black hole

GoldenBoy89

We're Still Here
Sep 25, 2012
26,034
28,682
LA
✟634,200.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
What blows me away with all of this is how Soundgarden was able to predict the image of a black hole with their album cover for Superunkown, 25 years ago!



Another interesting tidbit... This is the same album that features their hit song, Black Hole Sun.

Here's the video for it that I vividly remember being completely terrified of when I was a kid.

 
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
7,049
2,232
✟210,340.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Very cool!

Haters gonna say it's fake.
Looks like the race is on to be the first to develop a credible load of rubbish over at the delusional Electric Universe HQ!
(The leading contenders there seem to be working on casting stones at the way the imaging data has been integrated ... all without the slightest understanding of how it was done of course).
 
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟320,648.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
I'd really like to see some long term movies (minutes/hours/days/weeks/years) of the black hole. If they had to physically ship the hard drives physically because of the size of the data, they must have more than a single image of the object.

What happens when they turn up the contrast?
 
Upvote 0

Of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2018
571
445
Atlanta, Georgia
✟55,662.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married


The *noise* in the data is huge. While I'm sure there is more to be found in it, I suspect what they have done so far is analyze for the most probable and most reliable data that can be separated from the noise. It would be great if you can independently analyze the data, but -- it won't be easy.

First you will need to get a whole bunch of hard drives, and get the raw data copied onto it. Then you will have to explore algorithms for filtering programs. Perhaps, after reading their papers, you could accept some of what they did, with reliability checks of your own, of course. If you are able to analyze the data fairly and honestly, you will provide a real service to mankind, perhaps reinforcing some of the results and questioning others. I wish you well if you try it.
 
Reactions: SelfSim
Upvote 0

SpiritualBeing

Active Member
Nov 21, 2018
264
181
49
Tampa
✟39,024.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here is a good video explaining why the image is fuzzy.
 
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟320,648.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian

I think the data storage needs alone are a bit beyond my personal capacity to analyze. I was hoping they'd do the heavy lifting. In that last movie that SpiritualBeing cited, they talk about a rotation cycle of two days, and suggest that they have enough information to know that it rotates clockwise. I'd assume they have a longer movie, or quite a few more images in order to determine those types of things. It would have been nice to see a bit more of what they must already have.
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
This video does a great job of explaining what we are seeing in the image.

And it was made before the picture came out. It is an example of theory being confirmed. The present theory predicted that we would see what we ended up seeing. That is always very pleasing to scientists.
 
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

Nithavela

you're in charge you can do it just get louis
Apr 14, 2007
30,636
22,275
Comb. Pizza Hut and Taco Bell/Jamaica Avenue.
✟588,870.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
According to the internet, the most important aspects of this are that a woman lead the project, that there were men in the project as well and that there were too many white people.
 
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟320,648.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
According to the internet, the most important aspects of this are that a woman lead the project, that there were men in the project as well and that there were too many white people.

I suspect that the genetic and gender makeup of the team is pretty indicative and reflective of the makeup of astrophysicists in general.
 
Upvote 0

Nithavela

you're in charge you can do it just get louis
Apr 14, 2007
30,636
22,275
Comb. Pizza Hut and Taco Bell/Jamaica Avenue.
✟588,870.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
The black hole looks to me like it's smiling. A happy and glowing, disembodied smile. It's saying "Welcome to my world! So glad you came. You'll like it here so much, you'll never leave."
When that galaxy suddenly starts changing course and moves in our direction, we can get a few better pictures.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,143
✟349,282.00
Faith
Atheist
I just saw a documentary about how they did this - they had to use hydrogen maser atomic clocks at each telescope to synchronise the data collection via very long baseline interferometry (VLBI).

Using such widely distributed telescopes meant they had to compensate for the rotation of the Earth; for the movement of the Hawaii observatory due to plate tectonics; for the movement of the Antarctic observatory due to drifting of the ice shelf; and for all of them, they had to compensate - to differing degrees - for the tidal distortion of the Earth due to the moon...

They collected 5 petabytes of data in 1,200 helium-filled hard drives with no backups. This was too much to transmit over the internet, so they physically transported them across the world from each telescope to the datacentre for processing, which took over two years.

An extraordinary achievement.
 
Upvote 0

Kaon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2018
5,676
2,350
Los Angeles
✟111,517.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate

Interesting, but the world at large must stop saying that not even light can escape. The fundamental interactions for mass and electromagnetic radiation aren't the same - unless there is some process that changes a gauge boson to a scalar boson. The light just isn't visible, but what you are observing with instruments is light (electromagnetic radiation).

In fact, thousands of light-years of light eject from a black hole: we have already (allegedly) seen this.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,143
✟349,282.00
Faith
Atheist
The electromagnetic radiation observed comes from the particles orbiting the event horizon and light from other sources distorted around the event horizon, not from the BH itself (which radiates Hawking radiation, but at undetectable levels).
 
Upvote 0

Kaon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2018
5,676
2,350
Los Angeles
✟111,517.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate
The electromagnetic radiation observed comes from the particles orbiting the event horizon and light from other sources distorted around the event horizon, not from the BH itself (which radiates Hawking radiation, but at undetectable levels).

Hawkin Radiation is electromagnetic radiation (light). The particles radiated are photons, even if they are thermal.

The 10^4 light year jets occur on both chiral alignments of a black hole. Either way, the scalar boson gives mass to a fundamental particle; unless there has been a scalar interaction with the photon itself, gravity won't affect light. Before "light" is affected by gravity, it has to break down in charge and angular momentum - then it won't be a photon anymore. The "light" has always been there, just in the form of gamma rays. EDIT: lensing is a topological phenomenon, not necessarily a chromodynamics one.
 
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟320,648.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
I can accept the idea that we're looking down the throat of M87. but we should be looking at the side of the accretion disk of the object at the center of our own galaxy. Why would we even expect to see an event horizon from the object at the center of our galaxy?
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,143
✟349,282.00
Faith
Atheist
Hawkin Radiation is electromagnetic radiation (light). The particles radiated are photons, even if they are thermal.
I didn't say it wasn't. I was making the point that, for a large black hole, it's relatively insignificant.

Not sure what point you're making here. The bulk of radiation from the black hole is generated by the frictional forces in the accretion disk, and the ring image of the BH will also include light from lensed objects behind it. As I understand it, jets from a BH are plasma, probably accelerated by magnetic field interactions between the BH and the accretion disk.
 
Upvote 0

Kaon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2018
5,676
2,350
Los Angeles
✟111,517.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate
I didn't say it wasn't. I was making the point that, for a large black hole, it's relatively insignificant.

My original point is that light (photons) are always ejected from either side of a black hole - independent of the name of the radiation. It always "escapes" a black hole in the form of high energy photons.


My point was that we have to stop saying that black hole gravity is so strong that it pulls in even light. This is a fallacy, as gravity and light do not have the same fundamental carrier field (scalar boson, and gauge boson respectively). But, it is (indeed) electromagnetism that affects light - even in lensing and curvature.
 
Reactions: Strathos
Upvote 0