Fine tuning, a new approach

[Oncedeceived]

So, your point is merely stating the obvious?

It wasn't obvious I guess.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Try addressing the point you are quoting.

What?

 

[AdamSK]

Strange that most people on the planet have a sense of what it means by the word God, how God is eternal and uncaused and how that would relate to the necessary element of His nature.

No, most people on the planet don't think about the origins of the universe or what necessary elements God has. A surprisingly small region of the developed world tends to dwell on such things.

 

[Oncedeceived]

No, most people on the planet don't think about the origins of the universe or what necessary elements God has. A surprisingly small region of the developed world tends to dwell on such things.

That is simply false.

Christianity alone consists of 1/3 of the world population.

 

[tallbouy]

Christianity alone consists of 1/3 of the world population.

Perhaps once it did but not today, we don't know how many people on earth are Christians today, the figures given are way too big because the US alone is losing 3 million a year and 3 thousand Christian churches are closing every year.
If the number of believers keep going as they are in 10 years the numbers will be down by 10%, as the numbers continue to fall the defections will increase year on year.

http://www.churchleadership.org/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=42346&columnid=4545
http://www.churchleaders.com/pastor...ose-look-at-church-attendance-in-america.html

 

[Oncedeceived]

Perhaps once it did but not today, we don't know how many people on earth are Christians today, the figures given are way too big because the US alone is losing 3 million a year and 3 thousand Christian churches are closing every year.

http://www.churchleadership.org/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=42346&columnid=4545
http://www.churchleaders.com/pastor...ose-look-at-church-attendance-in-america.html

These are about church attendance. Many people are growing away from the churches because the churches are straying from the Gospel.

 

[tallbouy]

These are about church attendance. Many people are growing away from the churches because the churches are straying from the Gospel.

They are also about church closures, churches are closing because people have stopped attending, I thought churches were about fellowship and community? it seems not.
Straying from the Gospel? then why don't they increase the numbers going to other churches? why are they giving up instead of changing churches?
Perhaps they are dying off and the young are not taking their place, or perhaps people are starting to see through the religion and see it for what it is a myth, perhaps the people can't stand the hate coming out of the churches.

 

[tallbouy]

God is not a hoax.

Who would know if it was or it wasn't? it's just a feeling?

 

[KCfromNC]

Like I said before, we know that the universe as a whole whether we only observe 4% of it or not is fine tuned to exist and for life to exist.

I know what you said before. I'd like to see you address the contradiction in those various things you have said.

 

[KCfromNC]

Haven't a clue.

But remember everyone, the fine tuning argument is in no way based on our ignorance of the subject.

 

[KCfromNC]

I did not "make up" fine tuning. Fine tuning is a scientific phenomena that was labeled such by the scientists. It is real and at this time there are groups of scientists that are trying to find out why in naturalistic terms our universe in an unlikely way

And again you're confusing finely tuned with unlikely. The two aren't the same thing.

 

[Oncedeceived]

They are also about church closures, churches are closing because people have stopped attending, I thought churches were about fellowship and community? it seems not.
Straying from the Gospel? then why don't they increase the numbers going to other churches? why are they giving up instead of changing churches?
Perhaps they are dying off and the young are not taking their place, or perhaps people are starting to see through the religion and see it for what it is a myth, perhaps the people can't stand the hate coming out of the churches.

Yes, if people don't go to church it closes...pretty unremarkable. Churches are not about fellowship and community, although they give fellowship and a sense of community. They are about the gospel and sharing of that message in the church and through the church.

Regardless, this information is about church attendance. Saying that, we are told that the believers will start falling away in the last days. What we are seeing was predicted over two thousand years ago. But getting back to the point, you would have to be isolated not to know what theism and especially Christianity claims about God and claims about Him.

 

[Oncedeceived]

But remember everyone, the fine tuning argument is in no way based on our ignorance of the subject.

The fine tuning argument is based on exactly what I claimed it was based on. It is a scientific phenomena based on scientific discovery.

 

[Oncedeceived]

And again you're confusing finely tuned with unlikely. The two aren't the same thing.

Do the scientists that make that claim confuse it?

 

[KCfromNC]

Strange that most people on the planet have a sense of what it means by the word God

Sure. The problem is that these people have lots of mutually contradictory senses of what is meant by the word.

A necessary eternal cause is one that explains why there is something rather than nothing.

How are you defining cause, given that this alleged cause happened before time as we know it existed?

A necessary cause explains why there are contingent beings in a universe and a universe rather than absolutely nothing. The reason that a natural entity has less likelihood of being a necessary eternal cause

Exactly how likely is it compared to a supernatural creator god? Please, let's see the numbers and your math on how you arrived at this conclusion.

If there is more than one universe it would take trillions and trillions of them to explain the fine tuning of ours. This is not my estimation but that of the scientists that determine these things.

Is it?

Dr. Robin Collins has made an argument and argues that a “multiverse-generator” doesn’t eliminate the need for fine-tuning.The analogy he uses is that of a bread machine, which must have the right structure, programs, and ingredients (flour, water, yeast, and gluten) in order to produce decent loaves of bread. The same holds true, with the problem with a “multiverse-generator”, whether of the inflationary variety or some other type

Including a magical supernatural god or gods, one would think.

 

[KCfromNC]

The fine tuning argument is based on exactly what I claimed it was based on. It is a scientific phenomena based on scientific discovery.

So you say, and yet you keep coming back to "I don't know" when you're probed about these alleged scientific discoveries which you claim support it.

 

[Oncedeceived]

How would know if it was or it wasn't? a feeling?

This seems to be a common fallacy among non-believers or former believers. It seems that they seem to think belief in God is a self contained self induced state of mind. The revelation of God is not just a nice little feeling.

 

[KCfromNC]

Do the scientists that make that claim confuse it?

I don't know. What are the odds that scientists have calculated for our universe being the way it is? Last time I asked you couldn't answer, which leads me to believe that you're the one making the mistake.

 

[DogmaHunter]

What?

The point about you contradicting yourself.

Click back through the quotes if you need to refresh your memory.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Sure. The problem is that these people have lots of mutually contradictory senses of what is meant by the word.

Supreme Being is pretty much the standard.

How are you defining cause, given that this alleged cause happened before time as we know it existed?

There was nothing and then there was a universe. How? This is a logical question. Then we might want to ask why? IF you have no concern yourself that is something you hold to but for many many people the how and the why are important.

Exactly how likely is it compared to a supernatural creator god? Please, let's see the numbers and your math on how you arrived at this conclusion.

Do better explanations require them to be mathematical to come to some conclusion?

Is it?

Yes.

Including a magical supernatural god or gods, one would think.

The physical universe and everything within it is finite. It began to exist. God did not begin to exist but has existed forever.