Finding limitations in Naturalism

[Loudmouth]

So WIKI is wrong, and McGraw-Hill is wrong, but you can't come up with any single external reference that supports your (rather absurd) claim that no currents flow in the human brain?

We have the facts. As usual, you want to argue semantics and ignore the facts.

 

[Michael]

We have the facts.

What facts? Every reference that you have personally cited claims that you are wrong! You've presented no 'facts' that actually support your claims.

As usual, you want to argue semantics and ignore the facts.

You're the one claiming that charged particle movement in the brain is not a "current" even though every WIKI and other reference cited says exactly the opposite! What facts? All I've seen so far are handwaves and references that *refute* your claim.

 

[Michael]

I don't quite understand why Michael and justatruth have such a desperate obsession with having ion flux across a membrane at Nodes of Ranvier called an electrical current.

I don't understand why you two can't get along with the rest of the scientific community either, but that's not really my problem. I'm still waiting for either of you to cite an actual external reference that actually supports your claims. So far every single reference has actually refuted your claim. Do you even have *any* external reference that doesn't talk about voltages and current?

 

[kellhus]

I don't understand why you two can't get along with the rest of the scientific community

Considering I'm a part of that community, I actually get along with my colleagues just fine. You're just coming across as crazy now.

 

[Loudmouth]

You're the one claiming that charged particle movement in the brain is not a "current" even though every WIKI and other reference cited says exactly the opposite! What facts? All I've seen so far are handwaves and references that *refute* your claim.

The ion flux occurs at a right angle to the nerve impulse. That is a fact. Therefore, the nerve impulse is not a current. The nerve impulse is a wave of proteins changing their tertiary structure. I have shown you multiple references that demonstrate just that.

 

[kellhus]

The ion flux occurs at a right angle to the nerve impulse. That is a fact. Therefore, the nerve impulse is not a current. The nerve impulse is a wave of proteins changing their tertiary structure. I have shown you multiple references that demonstrate just that.

I think they are insisting we call ion flux a current for whatever petty reason. Maybe they think their magic cosmic plasma god demands it?

 

[Loudmouth]

I don't understand why you two can't get along with the rest of the scientific community either,

I think I lost ten irony meters on that one.

I'm still waiting for either of you to cite an actual external reference that actually supports your claims.

Already did.

"In physiology, an action potential is a short-lasting event in which the electrical membrane potential of a cell rapidly rises and falls, following a consistent trajectory."
Action potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Michael]

The ion flux occurs at a right angle to the nerve impulse. That is a fact. Therefore, the nerve impulse is not a current. The nerve impulse is a wave of proteins changing their tertiary structure. I have shown you multiple references that demonstrate just that.

You haven't shown me one that didn't use the term current or voltages or charged particle movement. In fact every single one of your own references *disagrees* with your claims. They all include the term 'current'.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I don't understand why you two can't get along with the rest of the scientific community either, but that's not really my problem. I'm still waiting for either of you to cite an actual external reference that actually supports your claims. So far every single reference has actually refuted your claim. Do you even have *any* external reference that doesn't talk about voltages and current?

Agreed, point me to this FACT that says anything but electric current and voltage? They might find one if they go back to 1880 papers Michael Lol.

 

[Michael]

I think they are insisting we call ion flux a current for whatever petty reason. Maybe they think their magic cosmic plasma god demands it?

No, but any charged particle movement is a form of current. Sorry that physics rains on your parade and all, but again, it's not my fault that you can't even produce a single external reference that actually agrees with you.

 

[Loudmouth]

You haven't shown me one that didn't use the term current or voltages or charged particle movement.

This may require you to actually put words together instead of doing a word search.

In fact every single one of your own references *disagrees* with your claims. They all include the term 'current'.

Including the term current does not make the nerve impulse a current. Again, please look at context.

The ion flux occurs at a right angle to the nerve impulse. That is what EVERY SINGLE REFERENCE SHOWS. Every one of them.

 

[kellhus]

We might care more if you explained this weird fetish for semantics you two have developed.

 

[Michael]

Agreed, point me to this FACT that says anything but electric current and voltage? They might find one if they go back to 1880 papers Michael Lol.

LOL! They may have to go back all the way to the 1700's.

 

[kellhus]

No, but any charged particle movement is a form of current.

And?

 

[Loudmouth]

No, but any charged particle movement is a form of current.

Movement of charged particles across a membrane is not a nerve impulse. Every cell has Na/K pumps, and every cell will have episodes where this homeostasis is interrupted where ions will rush in or out. That doesn't make every cell a nerve, or make them capable of carrying a nerve impulse.

Sorry that physics rains on your parade and all, but again, it's not my fault that you can't even produce a single external reference that actually agrees with you.

Every source shows the ion flux occurring at a right angle to the nerve impulse.

 

[Michael]

We might care more if you explained this weird fetish for semantics you two have developed.

Me? Not me. All the external references used the same terminology I used. They used terms like *voltage* and *current*. You're the one that seems to have their own personal lingo going, not me. I cited several different WIKI references, and LM produced two of his own that said exactly the same thing!

So far neither of you has provided an external reference that *did not* talk about current and voltages in fact.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I think I lost ten irony meters on that one.



Already did.

"In physiology, an action potential is a short-lasting event in which the electrical membrane potential of a cell rapidly rises and falls, following a consistent trajectory."
Action potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let me add to that what you leave out:
Membrane potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Membrane potential (also transmembrane potential or membrane voltage) is the difference in electric potential between the interior and the exterior of a biological cell. Typical values of membrane potential range from –40 mV to –80 mV.

The membrane potential in a cell derives ultimately from two factors: electrical force and diffusion. Electrical force arises from the mutual attraction between particles with opposite electrical charges (positive and negative) and the mutual repulsion between particles with the same type of charge (both positive or both negative).

You should really start here:

http://amasci.com/miscon/elect.html

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/circuits/u9l2e.cfm

http://www.furryelephant.com/content/electricity/teaching-learning/misconceptions/

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0503/0503132.pdf

http://fg.ed.pacificu.edu/wainwright/Publications/MisconceptionsArticle.06.pdf

http://www.efdergi.hacettepe.edu.tr/200121SELEN SENCAR.pdf

 

[Loudmouth]

Agreed, point me to this FACT that says anything but electric current and voltage? They might find one if they go back to 1880 papers Michael Lol.

Point me to any reference where the ion flux does not occur at a right angle to the nerve impulse.

 

[Michael]

And?

And.....Were it not for the fact that currents flow in our brains, you and I wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Loudmouth]

Let me add to that what you leave out:
Membrane potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Membrane potential is not a nerve impulse. Ions rushing through a protein along a concentration gradient is not a nerve impulse. Current is not a nerve impulse.