Finding limitations in Naturalism

[kellhus]

Why do they discuss current? Are you even for real?

Who the heck is "they"? Wikipedia?

 

[Michael]

Who the heck is "they"? Wikipedia?

Yes. Why does the page discuss *current*?
Voltage-gated ion channel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From crystallographic structural studies of a potassium channel, assuming that this structure remains intact in the corresponding plasma membrane, it is possible to surmise that when a potential difference is introduced over the membrane, the associated electromagnetic field induces a conformational change in the potassium channel. The conformational change distorts the shape of the channel proteins sufficiently such that the cavity, or channel, opens to admit ion influx or efflux to occur across the membrane, down its electrochemical gradient. This subsequently generates an electrical current sufficient to depolarise the cell membrane.

 

[Loudmouth]

Yes. Why does the page discuss *current*?
Voltage-gated ion channel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why does the "current" not involve the movement of electrons? Why does it instead involve the movement of positively charged sodium and potassium ions across a lipid membrane through protein channels? Where are the analogous lipid and amino acid polypeptide structures in your non-biological analog?

 

[kellhus]

Yes. Why does the page discuss *current*?
Voltage-gated ion channel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Because some random buffoon edited the article. Why should I care?


Whatever. The "current" is the ion flux through the voltage gated channels which depolarizes the membrane. Nerves still don't conduct current, no matter that the term appears somewhere in a wiki article.

 

[Michael]

Why does the "current" not involve the movement of electrons? Why does it instead involve the movement of positively charged sodium and potassium ions across a lipid membrane through protein channels? Where are the analogous lipid and amino acid polypeptide structures in your non-biological analog?

Plasmas in space are composed of all types of charged particles, not just electrons, not just protons, it even contains positrons and negatively charged ions too. So what?

 

[Michael]

Because some random buffoon edited the article. Why should I care?

And why should I believe you rather than Wiki?

 

[kellhus]

And why should I believe you rather than Wiki?

Because one would hope you're not that gormless.

 

[Loudmouth]

Plasmas in space are composed of all types of charged particles, not just electrons, not just protons, it even contains positrons and negatively charged ions too. So what?

Where are the lipids and protein gated channels to produce a difference in net charge across those structures? Where is the moving action potential moving at 100 m/s (or even slower for non-myelinated axons)? Like I said, bunnies in clouds.

 

[Loudmouth]

And why should I believe you rather than Wiki?

Perhaps this video will help you out (even thought the incorrectly call it a current):

Animation: The Nerve Impulse

 

[Michael]

Because one would hope you're not that gormless.

I've yet to see you respond to my actual question. Why do they mention electron movement in this one?

Voltage-gated proton channel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Voltage-gated proton channels are ion channels that have the unique property of opening with depolarization, but in a strongly pH-sensitive manner.[1] The result is that these channels open only when the electrochemical gradient is outward, such that their opening will only allow protons to leave cells. Their function thus appears to be acid extrusion from cells.[2]
Another important function occurs in phagocytes (e.g. eosinophils, neutrophils, and macrophages) during the respiratory burst. When bacteria or other microbes are engulfed by phagocytes, the enzyme NADPH oxidase assembles in the membrane and begins to produce reactive oxygen species (ROS) that help kill bacteria.[3] NADPH oxidase is electrogenic,[4] moving electrons across the membrane, and proton channels open to allow proton flux to balance the electron movement electrically.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage-gated_proton_channel#cite_note-5

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Why does the "current" not involve the movement of electrons? Why does it instead involve the movement of positively charged sodium and potassium ions across a lipid membrane through protein channels? Where are the analogous lipid and amino acid polypeptide structures in your non-biological analog?

Because of your misconception of electrical current.


Electric current - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In electric circuits this charge is often carried by moving electrons in a wire. It can also be carried by ions in an electrolyte, or by both ions and electrons such as in a plasma...

Do we need to discuss electrolyte? there is a correspondence you just do not want to see it.

A flow of positive charges gives the same electric current, and has the same effect in a circuit, as an equal flow of negative charges in the opposite direction. Since current can be the flow of either positive or negative charges, or both, a convention for the direction of current which is independent of the type of charge carriers is needed. The direction of conventional current is defined arbitrarily to be the direction of the flow of positive charges.

Direction flow is an arbitray definition to make circuits simpler because it can flow in any direction, can be negative or positive or both. It is charge *imbalance* that is all that is required. A voltage differential between two measured points.

 

[kellhus]

I've yet to see you respond to my actual question. Why do they mention electron movement in this one?

Voltage-gated proton channel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage-gated_proton_channel#cite_note-5

Because you apparently don't understand how Wikipedia works and get confused when you come across an error in an article.

I've already explained that it is really talking about transmembrane ionic flux and you ignored it, so don't lie and waste our time.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Because some random buffoon edited the article. Why should I care?


Whatever. The "current" is the ion flux through the voltage gated channels which depolarizes the membrane. Nerves still don't conduct current, no matter that the term appears somewhere in a wiki article.

This better then, authoritative enough for you?

Voltage-Gated Ion Channels - Neuroscience - NCBI Bookshelf

http://nerve.bsd.uchicago.edu/FB/IEEEvoltagegated.pdf

http://neuro.med.harvard.edu/faculty/documents/yellenMovingParts.pdf

Need more? can list about 100 others if you like.

 

[Michael]

Perhaps this video will help you out (even thought the incorrectly call it a current):

Animation: The Nerve Impulse

LOL! So everyone *else* is wrong? Right.

 

[Loudmouth]

Because of your misconception of electrical current.

You mean the net movement of electrons through a conductor? Nothing like that occurs in nerves. Nerves are not copper wires, and they are certain not plasma. Nothing analogous to nerve impulses occur in the structures that Michael is pointing to.

Do we need to discuss electrolyte? there is a correspondence you just do not want to see it.

Then show it to me.

Direction flow is an arbitray definition to make circuits simpler because it can flow in any direction, can be negative or positive or both. It is charge *imbalance* that is all that is required. A voltage differential between two measured points.

And in the case of the nerve cell, this voltage difference does not exist at the ends of the nerve. The nerve impulse is much more like a row of dominoes than an electrical current. This is why it moves at a near crawl compared to electrical currents.

 

[Loudmouth]

LOL! So everyone *else* is wrong? Right.

Yes, they are. A nerve impulse is not a current. A nerve impulse is a moving action potential. Did you watch the video or not?

 

[Michael]

Because you apparently don't understand how Wikipedia works and get confused when you come across an error in an article.

I understand exactly how it works and you've yet to demonstrate it's an error in the first place!

I've already explained that it is really talking about transmembrane ionic flux and you ignored it, so don't lie and waste our time.

I was talking about the electrical activity of the brain (and spacetime). I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Loudmouth]

This better then, authoritative enough for you?

Voltage-Gated Ion Channels - Neuroscience - NCBI Bookshelf

http://nerve.bsd.uchicago.edu/FB/IEEEvoltagegated.pdf

http://neuro.med.harvard.edu/faculty/documents/yellenMovingParts.pdf

Need more? can list about 100 others if you like.

Perhaps you can explain why a nerve impulse moves at 100 m/s while an electrical current moves at speeds orders of magnitude higher than that.

 

[kellhus]

This better then, authoritative enough for you?

Voltage-Gated Ion Channels - Neuroscience - NCBI Bookshelf

http://nerve.bsd.uchicago.edu/FB/IEEEvoltagegated.pdf

http://neuro.med.harvard.edu/faculty/documents/yellenMovingParts.pdf

Considering I've actually worked in an electrophysiology lab studying neurons, your really barking up the wrong tree pretending to understand these things I've worked with professionally when you and Michael are more clueless than the average undergrad.

 

[Loudmouth]

I understand exactly how it works and you've yet to demonstrate it's an error in the first place!

The nerve impulse is not a electrical current from one end of the neuron to the other like it is with electrical currents in a circuit or in your astronomical examples.