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Finding a new bible

St_Worm2

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I've been thinking about getting a new bible, but I'm not sure which is a good choice. I know I dont want the Scofield verson and I do like commentaries so that would be a plus. anyone have any suggestions?

My favorite Study Bible is the MacArthur Study Bible because of the extensive commentary (at least for a Study Bible)a. You can get it in various translations such as KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, and I believe NIV. My favorite translation is still the NASB, but I use all of the above translations regularly.

--David
 
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Incariol

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ViaCrucis

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Unix

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I agree fully on that part about buying commentaries separately (and my also priest said as recently as yesterday when I asked him that Bibles with a lot of notes reflect the editor's views on theological issues). I have recently written a lot about commentaries, EDIT: http://www.christianforums.com/t7541241/ skim through my posts, please, ebia has also discussed with me about commentaries! I strongly disagree about NRSV, ESV or CEB being good versions, I would recommend suspicion against the versions that sell the most (f.e. NIV).
I'm not a fan of study bibles. Get your prefered translation [...] in a format you like, and start building up a selection of useful commentaries separately.
As for what I would recommend, and You say You want a new Bible (unclear whether Your old one is just worn out or do You mean new scholarship), I would suggest the CTS New Catholic Bible, it's a recent version and has full notes, quite a study Bible. Don't be afraid of Catholic Bibles, where You go to Church and what other books You read and what friends You have, and what You search out on the internet or in libraries, defines to a greater extent Your grip on theology.

We Catholics just have a more difficult belief, You'll not believe the specifically Catholic teachings just because of ONE BIBLE.

I suspect You want a Bible with a lot of historical data. There's another, older thread with that question:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7589044/
... in the Young Adults -forum.

Previously edited by Unix; 1st April 2012 at 11:55 AM local time. Reason: add that about a thread in Young Adults
 
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Michaelrh1325

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Firstly, I have to disagree with our Catholic friend about. The ESV is a fantastic version, whether or not it's one of the top sellers. It sells well for a reason; it's excellent. I use the ESV Study Bible, and let me tell you, I adore it. I actually have an order in for an NRSV with the Apocrypha, and in fact it will be here tomorrow. I have heard great things about the NRSV, and as soon as I dig into it, I will update you in this thread. I was recommended the NRSV New Oxford Annotated Bible 4th Edition. The notes are supposed to be some of the world's finest. Regarding the NRSV and top sellers, it's not even on the top 10 best selling lists. While it's been a respected version for a long time, it has never been a top seller. Also, regarding the Catholic faith, the last I knew, and I could be wrong as it could be different now, the Catholic Church has approved the NRSV for private study and use, but not for public worship, so there could be some bias with our Catholic friend up there. I can't stand the thought of the NIV, however. Another thing about top sellers is, the KJV is on or around the top of that list consistently. I wouldn't say you should avoid the KJV. If you're not Catholic, I wouldn't buy a Catholic bible to use as a primary or anything. It may be good to have handy for the historical books that aren't in Protestant bibles, which is why I ordered the NRSV with the Apocrypha.

My suggestion would be the ESV Study Bible. A suggestion to me was the Oxford bible I spoke about.
 
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hedrick

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The NRSV isn't a top seller because it in a few places it takes scholarly choices rather than conservative ones. But the ESV's merits come primarily from being based on the RSV, which is of course the predecessor to the NRSV. They've just adjusted it a bit to match conservative preferences. If your own theology is conservative you may still prefer it, but otherwise I recommend the real thing, though I'd suggest NRSV rather than RSV simply because it has a few decades more scholarship. I'm not a great fan of gender neutral translations, but I also don't don't object.

There a very new alternative: the Common English Bible. Conservatives may not like it, because it makes roughly the same choices as RSV or NRSV. But if you don't demand a conservative Bible, I think the CEB does something fairly unusual: It's as readable as the "modern language" translations while remaining close enough to the original that Fuller allows it in exegesis courses. I'm starting to use it as my standard Bible. In the past I used NRSV for close study and TEV when reading larger texts for meaning. It's looking with the CEB may work for both, though I course I have many translations, and also use Greek to some extent.

There's no study editions yet, but since you don't want one that shouldn't be an issue.
 
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Unix

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You are just using superlatives, and not giving an argument as to WHY it's good. How do You for example explain away the Calvinistic bias in it? That is intentional bias, worse than Catholic bias. Also, the ESV is very formal equivalent, a Bible shouldn't be. If You don't know any Greek or Hebrew the formal equivalent sentence structure and the puns wont make sense to You, You'll only THINK You understand without understanding correctly.

There's less difference between a protestant Bible and a Catholic Bible, than You might think.

I'm glad You thought that the CTS New Catholic Bible is a Catholic Bible, because that gives me chance to give a counter-argument: it's not a Catholic version, it's in-between a Catholic and a Protestant version, intermediating. If You read about it's predecessor the ©1966, 1967, 1968 Jerusalem Bible, You can see that.

Let me give an example: I have a parallel New Testament printed in 1974, with 8 versions, on the back cover there's brief descriptions about the included versions, and it says that the Jerusalem Bible is appreciated by both Protestants and Catholics alike, also by scholars.

If You look at Catholic Bible commentaries, extremely few of them use the Jerusalem Bible, I come to think of only one series, and none use the CTS New Catholic Bible.

A more Catholic Bible which You should bevare of then, is the NAB-RE (OT done in 2002, Psalms done in 2010, NT done in 1986). To give my priest as an example: even though he is supposed to holding the Mass from the CTS New Catholic Bible (or the Jerusalem Bible), he is going solo in Europe using the NAB. He holds very Catholic sermons, so this means he doesn't think the CTS New Catholic Bible nor the Jerusalem Bible are.

The Jerusalem Bible is very famous, and everyone I've have spoken with IRL 2011-2012 have heard about it (and I've only spoken to Protestants, except my priest). One bloke hadn't heard it - but he didn't even know where to buy Bibles and used only a Finnish version. The CTS New Catholic Bible hasn't altered everything, but is clearly more modernistic, historical-critical, and a bit skeptic, than the Jerusalem Bible, just like the ESV and NRSV. The notes reflect a very modern view indeed.

Yes I know very well, the ESV is said to be conservative, but that's a grave miscomprehension/sales trique, it's based on the liberal RSV-2P. And yes the RSV is a liberal version. The only actual difference where the ESV is not giving into the liberalism of the RSV-P, is the famous Is 7:14 passage.

Also, if You think the ESV is a clearly protestant Bible, You might be very surprised that it has recently been amended by the Catholic Church in Australia for both use in Mass and in private - although it might not show up in the official Vatican listed of approved versions, but this is a fact. Also, brandplucked has showed that the ESV uses a Catholic scholarship critical textual basis, in several long threads. That's true, and the protestant translators were sold to the Catholic basis.

The ESV is marketed as a Bible study group version. If that's not Your main usage of it, it wont function well as a devotional Bible.

Serious scholars rarely use the ESV. Of course some, not that few. Unnecessary to point out, there's no commentary series which is widely accepted or that I would have noticed, based on the ESV. Only thing I've noticed is that there's interlinear Bibles Greek-English and Hebrew-English based on the ESV and that's besides the point.

The ESV may be popular, I'm sure it's in the top 3 or 4 list. Thats no sign of quality.

Regarding the scholarship of the ESV? Well, the RSV had decent scholarship for it's time, and has had several upgrades, the first edition of the NT came in 1946, then there were several revisions, especially Catholic revisions, the last as recent as in the '00s. What the ESV has done, is a downgrade, there's perhaps ⅓% improvements or less. It's nicknamed the Extremely Similar Version or Evangelical Standard Version, and it's not even mainstream because of the said Calvinistic bias. It's a version of very narrow usage because it falls into a cathegory.

Protestants, on an average, buy extremely much and recent Bibles. Catholics don't. The Orthodox use the Majority Text textual basis for the NT and the Septuagint as textual basis for the entire OT. You can see how it's not especially difficult to explain the sales figures of the ESV!
Firstly, I have to disagree with our Catholic friend about. The ESV is a fantastic version, whether or not it's one of the top sellers. It sells well for a reason; it's excellent.

False:
1) the ESV's only merit is that it's new. Whatever the advantage of that - not much at all. It's not even following the UBS Greek New Testament Version 4 that well even though version 4 IS the very newest, from 1993. There is another version that adheres to it strictly: the 2008-2009 Comprehensive New Testament, then of course You lack the OT.
2) It's not conservative like said.
But the ESV's merits come primarily from being based on the RSV, which is of course the predecessor to the NRSV. They've just adjusted it a bit to match conservative preferences. If your own theology is conservative you may still prefer it.
 
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Unix

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Catholic faith this, Catholic faith that. I have never started to talk about the vatican.va list of approved versions, & I really don't care about that list, I never even looked towards that the list before I chose my preferred versions even though I was aware there's a list. If You want me to admit things, the NRSV-CE has been recently approved for Mass also, in the English-speaking part of Canada. So what? It's just a gesture from the RCC to gain acceptance in the scholars world - as such the gesture may be necessary of course. The RCC is very pro-critical-scholars and does whatever it takes to please them, since now barely >45 years. That's good. And that's why I tell to not look by ALL the Catholic-inspired versions. I'm in favor for critical thought. Catholic top Scripture scholars in Greek and Hebrew are OFTEN partaking in important joint ventures. The bottom-line is often world-class knowledge of Greek and especially Hebrew which is more difficult. And I ESPECIALLY recommend Catholi Old Testaments for everyone, that's where the Catholics perform very well. A Protestant NT can be accepted. Catholic interpretation is often cited in the major commentary series, f.e. the Hermeneia-series, by protestants as well. In the real world of scholars, Catholics are not rejected from the group just because of the faith issues. All the best brains are needed to make the best commentaries, theological books, versions, interlinears, and exegesis.


Even so I don't see the point of the NRSV - besides it's not THAT critical - it had a large board of Scripture scholars, so the result was the common denominator. The project went over-board and isn't that radical. One sign of that is the wealth of commentaries based on the NRSV or NRSV-CE - that just shows how much it had to be corrected in the aftermath.

One purpose of the NRSV was to be version, just like the so called RSV Common Version (look it up to understand what I'm talking about), possible to use by ALL Churches, so the unabridged full NRSV includes for example books used only by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and another small Orthodox Church that has the book 4 Esdras. You can notice how the NRSV and NRSV-CE partially succeeded with that task. The NRSV is more liberal in order to steer away from debates to a territory where different Churches can by a stretch accept a joint venture. Would it have been log-conservative it would have been stamped as belonging to one or a few Church - whichever those might be, I don't know.
Also, regarding the Catholic faith, the last I knew, and I could be wrong as it could be different now, the Catholic Church has approved the NRSV for private study and use, but not for public worship, so there could be some bias with our Catholic friend up there.
 
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Michaelrh1325

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You clearly know more than me, Unix, and I mean that genuinely. I've been at this for just a couple of months. I'm churchless, without a denomination, and most of my information comes from what I have researched online. The best way to describe myself right now is, Protestant with Catholic tendencies. From the little I know, or think I know, rather, I agree more with the Protestants, but the Apocrypha is really intriguing to me.

Personally, I don't like the KJV because of how difficult it is to read. I'm also not a fan of the NKJV. The NIV, especially the "new" NIV just completely turns me off. My wife uses the NLT because of it's reading simplicity, as she dislikes to read, but I have no use for that kind of bible; I am perfectly capable of reading and understanding the literal translations of a higher reading level, so long as it's modern English. My choices, as a non-Catholic, from my research and from my understanding of what best fits me, are the ESV, NRSV, NASB, and HCSB. The ESV seemed to be the best study choice, as the ESV Study Bible is highly acclaimed, and the NRSV was my best option for a bible that contains the Apocrypha. The ESV also has an Apocrypha version, but it made little sense to get 2 bibles of the same version, when I could get 2 different versions and cover my bases.

As I'm new to this, maybe me loving the ESV is wrong. I have personally found nothing wrong with it, but again, I'm new to Christianity. I also know that many, many people also love the ESV.
 
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ebia

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Michaelrh1325 said:
You clearly know more than me, Unix, and I mean that genuinely. I've been at this for just a couple of months. I'm churchless, without a denomination, and most of my information comes from what I have researched online. The best way to describe myself right now is, Protestant with Catholic tendencies. From the little I know, or think I know, rather, I agree more with the Protestants, but the Apocrypha is really intriguing to me.

Personally, I don't like the KJV because of how difficult it is to read. I'm also not a fan of the NKJV. The NIV, especially the "new" NIV just completely turns me off. My wife uses the NLT because of it's reading simplicity, as she dislikes to read, but I have no use for that kind of bible; I am perfectly capable of reading and understanding the literal translations of a higher reading level, so long as it's modern English. My choices, as a non-Catholic, from my research and from my understanding of what best fits me, are the ESV, NRSV, NASB, and HCSB. The ESV seemed to be the best study choice, as the ESV Study Bible is highly acclaimed, and the NRSV was my best option for a bible that contains the Apocrypha. The ESV also has an Apocrypha version, but it made little sense to get 2 bibles of the same version, when I could get 2 different versions and cover my bases.

As I'm new to this, maybe me loving the ESV is wrong. I have personally found nothing wrong with it, but again, I'm new to Christianity. I also know that many, many people also love the ESV.

Esv is more conservative and evangelical than NRSV. That really is it's point of difference, and that's why it's widely acclaimed in conservative circles. Across the board NRSV is more widely acclaimed, just less vocally. The ESV doesn't represent improved scholarship over the NRSV, just a choice not to follow scholarship that doesn't fit the conservative evangelical preconceptions. The NRSV is the default version for seminaries and theological colleges (including Catholic ones here) and Anglican liturgies.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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hedrick

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Even so I don't see the point of the NRSV - besides it's not THAT critical - it had a large board of Scripture scholars, so the result was the common denominator. The project went over-board and isn't that radical. One sign of that is the wealth of commentaries based on the NRSV or NRSV-CE - that just shows how much it had to be corrected in the aftermath.

The goal of the NRSV, like the RSV, is to be a formally equivalent translation giving the consensus of current critical scholarship. It's not intended to be radical. The fact that lots of commentaries are based on it doesn't mean that it needs correction. It means that it's the standard translation used by scholars, and scholars write many of the commentaries.

The NRSV meets its purpose well, which is why it's so widely used in scholarly work. It's not so widely used in churches because most churches are conservative, and reject critical scholarship. (Many churches that might otherwise use it also want a more readable translation. The CEB will probably appeal to them.) The main criticism one might make is the inclusive language. In my opinion inclusive language makes sense in a modern-language translation, in passages where the original is genuinely neutral in gender. I would prefer not to have it in a formal equivalent translation such as the NRSV. But I understand the political reasons for it, and don't consider it a serious negative.

Someone above mentioned wanting to use best-selling translations. The problem is that most Protestants don't accept current critical scholarship, so that biases you towards translations such as the ESV and NIV, both of which accept current textual scholarship but reject current exegetical scholarship. The ESV is a hacked RSV. It's the conservative equivalent to the NRSV, but is somewhat more literal. It is probably the best choice for someone that wants a formal equivalent translation to do detailed exegesis, and who rejects the scholarly assumptions behind the NRSV. The NIV was intended for broad use in churches, and thus tends to be a bit freer. It also is from a broad evangelical orientation, where the ESV was done by conservative Reformed scholars.

Or the NKJV, which rejects both critical textual scholarship and critical exegetical scholarship.

Catholics are in a different situation than conservative Protestants. There are separate translations for conservative Protestants, because they have their own scholarly community that rejects mainstream critical scholarship. But by and large Catholics are part of the same scholarly community, and in general there are no longer doctrinally-based differences in translation between Protestants and Catholics. There are fine Catholic translations, both the NAB and the Jerusalem Bible. But the NAB was done by a smaller group, had some minor weirdness (e.g. differences in style between books) and just isn't as widely used. Jerusalem is interesting, but has its own weirdnesses (e.g. more use of conjectural texts in the OT, and a tendency to rearrange the order of the text). In some ways these are like the NEB/REB: interesting efforts by respected scholars, but not the consensus view as the NRSV is. Hence I suspect most Catholic scholars simply see no reason not to use the NRSV or to do a separate Catholic equivalent. Catholics are part of the translation team. Why create confessionally-based splits where there's no reason for it?

One problem the conservatives have is that, being a larger community than liberals, they are a larger market. Their translations have also tended to be done by groups with a tie to a specific publisher. These things together spur creation of multiple translations, simply so that publishers have something they can sell. The RSV and NRSV are licensed to lots of publishers. (It's too soon to see about the CEB, but since the mainline is a niche market anyway it may not matter as much.) It also means that none of them really represents a consensus of the whole evangelical community as the NRSV does for the whole mainline community. Thus by the way conservative translations are done, there can't be a true conservative equivalent to the NRSV.

While it may be good to have lots of modern-language translations, it's also useful to have a single, long-live translation or translation family for people to memorize. When I'm doing exegesis, I use a search engine, but I still need to know the words I'm looking for. Since I grew up on the RSV and moved to the NRSV, that's easy. I'm actually reading the CEB now, but still use the NRSV for searches. Someone who grows up on something like Holman may not be in as good shape in the long run, since they're unlikely to use it for decades. A couple of years ago I would have said that the NIV is the closest equivalent, but with the NIV 2011, that translation seems to be committing market suicide. (The whole point of the NIV was that it was for people who reject critical exegetical scholarship. Who is going to buy a translation that has made lots of decisions based on conservative scholarship, but that has adopted the most controversial feature of the NRSV?) That leaves conservatives with no obvious choice for serious study and memorization. I'm afraid there really is no good recommendation. You may actually be better off with the NRSV. That assumes there's sometime going to be an NNSRV, and that the RSV committee doesn't do something weird as well. Maybe we should all give up and learn Greek and Hebrew...
 
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Unix

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'Used by' is an exaggeration. In fact authors prefer their own translation.
The goal of the NRSV, [...] The fact that lots of commentaries are based on it doesn't mean that it needs correction. It means that it's the standard translation used by scholars, and scholars write many of the commentaries.
So, You are admitting that the ESV rejects current exegetical scholarship but You say it's probably the best choice for someone who wants to do detailed exegesis? I don't get! Therefore I recommend the CTS New Catholic Bible, it doesn't reject current textual scholarship nor current exegetical scholarship.

I wouldn't say there's a difference in formal equivalency between those two, unless You refer to the gender-neutralness of the NRSV which does take away from it's formal equivalency.

I think the ESV is hard to read.
Someone above mentioned wanting to use best-selling translations. The problem is that most Protestants don't accept current critical scholarship, so that biases you towards translations such as the ESV and NIV, both of which accept current textual scholarship but reject current exegetical scholarship. The ESV is a hacked RSV. It's the conservative equivalent to the NRSV, but is somewhat more literal. It is probably the best choice for someone that wants a formal equivalent translation to do detailed exegesis, and who rejects the scholarly assumptions behind the NRSV.
Thanks for the clarification, people wouldn't believe me when I was saying the same thing.
There are separate translations for conservative Protestants, because they have their own scholarly community that rejects mainstream critical scholarship. But by and large Catholics are part of the same scholarly community, and in general there are no longer doctrinally-based differences in translation between Protestants and Catholics.
The CTS New Catholic Bible was done in the '00s and has full notes and introductions to Bible books and is THE update of the ©1966, 1967, 1968 Jerusalem Bible Standard Edition with full notes. I like the use of conjectural texts, the tendency to rearrange text, and the dynamic equivalency and I recommend that.
There are fine Catholic translations, both the NAB and the Jerusalem Bible. But the NAB was done by a smaller group, had some minor weirdness (e.g. differences in style between books) and just isn't as widely used. Jerusalem is interesting, but has its own weirdnesses (e.g. more use of conjectural texts in the OT, and a tendency to rearrange the order of the text).
NEB, and to some extent REB, also rearranges text. The 1989 REB is more formal equivalent than the CTS New Catholic Bible.
In some ways these are like the NEB/REB: interesting efforts by respected scholars, but not the consensus view as the NRSV is.
Catholics often prefer a bit more dynamic equivalent translations, than the protestants. The exception is the 1986 NAB NT.
Hence I suspect most Catholic scholars simply see no reason not to use the NRSV or to do a separate Catholic equivalent.
That makes it easier to choose among the Catholic translations.
Catholics are part of the translation team. Why create confessionally-based splits where there's no reason for it?
I would avoid the mainstream-Bible NRSV.
One problem the conservatives have is that, being a larger community than liberals, they are a larger market. Their translations have also tended to be done by groups with a tie to a specific publisher. These things together spur creation of multiple translations, simply so that publishers have something they can sell. The RSV and NRSV are licensed to lots of publishers. (It's too soon to see about the CEB, but since the mainline is a niche market anyway it may not matter as much.) It also means that none of them really represents a consensus of the whole evangelical community as the NRSV does for the whole mainline community.
Well looks like there isn't any.
it's also useful to have a single, long-live translation or translation family for people to memorize.
About Greek and exegesis and theology, I would like to have opionions on whether I should buy these e-books I mentioned and study hard, or leave my money in my savings account for a moped-car, go to: http://www.christianforums.com/t7644634/
Maybe we should all give up and learn Greek and Hebrew...
 
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