Fight Church?

[mkgal1]

FIGHT CHURCH is a feature-length documentary about the confluence of Christianity and mixed martial arts, including ministries which train fighters. The film follows several pastors and popular fighters in their quest to reconcile their faith with a sport that many consider violent and barbaric. Faith is tried and questions are raised. Can you really love your neighbor as yourself and then punch him in the face?

Here's the trailer.....I'll have to disclose that there is actual MMA fighting shown.

So.....does *this* go along with Christianity...in your opinion?

Fight Church Official Trailer #1 (2014) Mixed Martial Arts Documentary HD - YouTube

 

[Autumnleaf]

Janissaries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christians have a history of fighting.

 

[Odetta]

It's a sport. Do you have the same thoughts about football? That is also very aggressive against other people. As is wrestling.

 

[mkgal1]

Did you happen to watch the trailer? It's not as if they're playing sports after church. This whole thing is integrated into church (and the references made to "fight your enemy"--conflating that with satan while preparing to fight opponents--is where I have the biggest issue).

If the same thing were done with football.....then, yes.....I'd have the same thoughts about it.

 

[South Bound]

FIGHT CHURCH is a feature-length documentary about the confluence of Christianity and mixed martial arts, including ministries which train fighters. The film follows several pastors and popular fighters in their quest to reconcile their faith with a sport that many consider violent and barbaric. Faith is tried and questions are raised. Can you really love your neighbor as yourself and then punch him in the face?

Here's the trailer.....I'll have to disclose that there is actual MMA fighting shown.

So.....does *this* go along with Christianity...in your opinion?

Fight Church Official Trailer #1 (2014) Mixed Martial Arts Documentary HD - YouTube

Physical contests are not necessarily bad. MMA is stupid, but not necessarily sinful.

I have a bigger problem with trying to tie everything in with Christianity. "Cowboy Church", "Biker Church", "Heavy Metal Church" (yes, there is such a thing), etc. How about we just have "Church Church" and stop trying to make Christianity cool?

Incidentally, I have no doubt that Santa Claus loved Arius when he delivered the right hook of fellowship to his cranium.

 

[mkgal1]

I have a bigger problem with trying to tie everything in with Christianity. "Cowboy Church", "Biker Church", "Heavy Metal Church" (yes, there is such a thing), etc. How about we just have "Church Church" and stop trying to make Christianity cool?

I think "Cowboy church" and "biker church" and "heaven metal church" is to allow all those groups to feel as if they belong--and this seems a lot more than that. This--to me--is conflating "fight the good fight" with MMA....and "the enemy" --instead of being satan---becomes each other. It just seems very conflicted to me.

 

[South Bound]

I think "Cowboy church" and "biker church" and "heaven metal church" is to allow all those groups to feel as if they belong

Segregating people by hobby is completely Unbiblical.

 

[mkgal1]

Segregating people by hobby is completely Unbiblical.

I agree that "the Body of Christ" ought to be a place where everyone feels welcome....but I don't see a problem with "like-minded" people worshiping together in an environment that feels non-judgmental to them (but that's probably all another thread).

 

[South Bound]

I agree that "the Body of Christ" ought to be a place where everyone feels welcome....but I don't see a problem with "like-minded" people worshiping together in an environment that feels non-judgmental to them (but that's probably all another thread).

That's not Biblical at all. The New Testament describes churches being made up of believers of all backgrounds coming together in a corporate body, and putting their own wishes/desires/quirks aside for the sake of the edification of the Body.

There are churches that emphasize youth. Loud rock and roll music, complete with rock band, etc, but how do they follow the Bible's command to emulate the older saints, not to mention what message that sends to the older saints?

How does anyone learn to use their liberty without ever having to consider weaker brothers?

The "I just want to get together with people just like me" isn't Biblical and is a huge cop out.

What message does the "let's all dress up and pretend we're cowboys and have the Lord's Supper with hardtack and whiskey" church send to those of us who aren't interested in pretending to be cowboys?

 

[mkgal1]

You may have to begin another thread, because that doesn't really pertain to the OP. It's a great topic for discussion, though.

 

[Tzaousios]

So.....does *this* go along with Christianity...in your opinion?

No, it has nothing to do with historical, orthodox Christianity, even if one leaves out the element of violence. It is yet another pitiful example of how the modern Evangelical and non-denominational churches fall prey to culture rather than transforming that culture with the light of Christ. The megachurch and culture-driven church models are fads that have lost their way.

Janissaries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christians have a history of fighting.

What do the Ottoman Janissaries have to do with Christians fighting? The Janissaries were composed of Christian children who were taken as part of the "blood tax" on conquered peoples, raised to be Muslim ascetics, and formed the elite infantry unity and bodyguard of the Sultan's armies.

 

[Romanseight2005]

It's a sport. Do you have the same thoughts about football? That is also very aggressive against other people. As is wrestling.

I do. I hate football, but that's besides the point. Should football be a part of church service?

 

[WolfGate]

Did you happen to watch the trailer? It's not as if they're playing sports after church. This whole thing is integrated into church (and the references made to "fight your enemy"--conflating that with satan while preparing to fight opponents--is where I have the biggest issue).

If the same thing were done with football.....then, yes.....I'd have the same thoughts about it.

ZOMBIE THREAD!!!!

mkgal1 - Seriously, I must have been on hiatus when you posted this originally and since you are still here, I decided to comment. I had a sense of discomfort watching the trailer, but I don't think I can clearly articulate why. It's nothing against MMA. My son wrestles varsity in school, and I see enough to know that it's about competition and not hatred for your opponent. Often you wind up wrestling your friends and the bout changes nothing. MMA is much more violent but overall it's competition that drives the fighters - any dislike of a particular opponent is incidental. So the critic's comment about "hate" is off base.

I do think it has to do with going beyond creating an open and welcoming environment for people who might feel judged for their sport (as the "hate" critic appeared to judge them) to a sense they were interweaving MMA and Christianity. Is that going from being "in" the world to "of" the world? You can enjoy a sport and be Christian, but the sport is not Christian. I think I get the sense those pastors were almost presenting the sport itself as Christian. Not overtly, but I think that is part of why I, even as a sport fan, feel uncomfortable.

 

[mkgal1]

Haha.....I forgot all about this thread.

In wresting, though, each opponent isn't out to hurt, injure, or harm their opponent.....right? Aren't points accumulated by pinning (I know very little about that sport....so forgive me if I'm wrong). I see wresting in the category of fencing---more about skill than violence (but---admittedly---I know very little about *both* sports).

I just have a difficult time with a person intentionally hurting another (and the audience taking delight in it). It reminds me of what I've read about the Roman era---with their variety of "sport".

I also take exception to the emphasis being on the Christian life being a "battle" (although--I will admit to the spiritual battle...not flesh and blood)...and the idea that Christianity has "feminized" men.

There's a lot wrapped up into that that I don't believe is edifying.

I think I get the sense those pastors were almost presenting the sport itself as Christian. Not overtly, but I think that is part of why I, even as a sport fan, feel uncomfortable.

I think you're right about that. It was sort of idolizing the sport (and if that was to make people feel comfortable and not judged...then that's probably crossing a line into pleasing mankind).

 

[Dave-W]

I also take exception to the emphasis being on the Christian life being a "battle" (although--I will admit to the spiritual battle...not flesh and blood)...

Many in the church take exception to that fact. If we are believers, we ARE in a constant spiritual battle against the devil and his minions. I was in a vocal group once and we wanted to sing "O Happy Day" by Edwin Hawkins. But there were a couple of members that wanted to change the lyric from "He taught me how to watch, fight and pray..." to get rid of "fight." I think we went with something like "watch, watch and pray" or "watch fast and pray."

Paul said we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities, etc. That is VERY DIFFERENT from physical altercation. Are there similarities? A few. But not enough to build any kind of teaching or doctrine on.

 

[mkgal1]

Many in the church take exception to that fact. If we are believers, we ARE in a constant spiritual battle against the devil and his minions. I was in a vocal group once and we wanted to sing "O Happy Day" by Edwin Hawkins. But there were a couple of members that wanted to change the lyric from "He taught me how to watch, fight and pray..." to get rid of "fight." I think we went with something like "watch, watch and pray" or "watch fast and pray."

Paul said we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities, etc. That is VERY DIFFERENT from physical altercation. Are there similarities? A few. But not enough to build any kind of teaching or doctrine on.

I absolutely agree.

I'm glad that Wolfgate dragged this old thread up, because between the time I'd originally posted it and now I've seen a certain progression in the mainstream church related to this idea of "battling".

It seems to have led people like the county official that believed it was her station in the "battle" to buck the government that employed her (and many people applauded her. But let's not make this thread about that specifically). The same attitude seems to be prompting people to "speak out" and permanently severing ties with friends over (minor) differences of beliefs. I, personally, believe that with Christ it's connection with others over "standing our ground".

 

[Dave-W]

It seems to have led people like the county official that believed it was her station in the "battle" to buck the government that employed her (and many people applauded her. But let's not make this thread about that specifically). The same attitude seems to be prompting people to "speak out" and permanently severing ties with friends over (minor) differences of beliefs. I, personally, believe that with Christ it's connection with others over "standing our ground".

There are times to keep the relationship going and times to stand your ground. The latter comes usually over something VERY MAJOR.

Take James in the bible for instance. Not the son of Zebedee and brother of John the apostle, but the son of Joseph - brother of the Lord who is called James the Just or James the Less.

If there was any group in the gospels demonized by modern protestant Christianity, it was the Pharisees. And while we saw the Lord stand up to them on many occasions, it was not the kind of standing up that meant HE gave up on them. There were 2 schools of Pharisees in Jerusalem, House of Shammai and house of Hillel. From what we know of the differences, it was Shammai's group that seemed to be attacking the Lord on most occasions. (for instance - Hillel's group had no problem with practicing medicine "healing," or plucking and eating grain on the Sabbath)

And yet we see James, WHILE leading the Jerusalem congregation in Acts, ALSO heading up one of the two schools of Pharisees. (most probably Shammai's) And it was his students that took him to the pinnacle of the temple and threw him down for refusing to deny his Brother in the mid 60s ad.

The reason I am pretty sure it was Shammai's school is that we know Gamaliel led the Hillel school (being Hillel's grandson) during that time and he was followed by Akiva.

But imagine that - both the leader of the most central church in Christendom, and heading up a school of Pharisees. At the same time.

 

[WolfGate]

Haha.....I forgot all about this thread.

In wresting, though, each opponent isn't out to hurt, injure, or harm their opponent.....right? Aren't points accumulated by pinning (I know very little about that sport....so forgive me if I'm wrong). I see wresting in the category of fencing---more about skill than violence (but---admittedly---I know very little about *both* sports).

I just have a difficult time with a person intentionally hurting another (and the audience taking delight in it). It reminds me of what I've read about the Roman era---with their variety of "sport".

Yes, that is a difference with MMA/boxing, though wrestling would fall somewhere between MMA and most other sports. You are not striking, trying to knock out or physically hurt your opponent into submission as MMA. You accumulate points by takedowns, escapes, nearly pinning them, etc. If you pin them you win. So there is an significant element of trying to physically overpower your opponent, though technique comes into play from a leverage standpoint even more. I would agree it's more about skill than violence, absolutely. Still, it is one of the few sports where your goal is to physically overpower another person. Wrestling does hurt, but so does running cross country.

 

[WolfGate]

The Christian "battle" is real, but what is it? JMHO, but I think it is more about us as Christians, individually and as a church. About battling our sinful human nature, about battling the pull and temptations of the secular world, about battling Satan. I do not think it is about battling non-Christians per se - most of those things are internal to us as believers. There are times we have to fight for the lives and rights of fellow believers, and to protect Christian's and the church's legal and ethical rights. But I do not see those as the Christian battle. Those are fights that result from us as fallen sinful people dealing with non-believers who are also fallen, sinful people even if they do not know it. Even then, the goal is not to "beat" them but to protect the church and others. Certainly it should not be about making non-Christians act like they are Christians and by legal means force them to follow our doctrine and biblical instructions. Thinking about it, that type of mindset would result in more often picking the right "very major" things to stand your ground on, to use Dave's words.

 

[mkgal1]

If there was any group in the gospels demonized by modern protestant Christianity, it was the Pharisees. And while we saw the Lord stand up to them on many occasions, it was not the kind of standing up that meant HE gave up on them.

Thank you for this comment, Dave. That brings up something else that I am observing about the recent "aggression" in how people are "standing their ground". There's not an underlying attitude of being "for" the other person at all---it's all about competition (which is like this idea of Fight Church). I think that's really the important distinction. God doesn't (I don't believe) want for us to "overtake" our "enemies"....we're instructed to love even our enemies. The thing is----we have to properly define what our "enemy" is (and it's not usually people--if ever).

The other thing this comment brings to mind is how people like to stereotype and group people into boxes. That brings up all sorts of issues (and often the "real" enemy slips through unnoticed---IYKWIM).