Few will be saved?

Getting back to the thrust of the O.P. - I'm not sure what number amounts to "few" in the eyes of God.

But it is obvious from the scriptures that many who think that they are saved (or hope they are saved) are not in reality saved.

The ones who are of another religion or a "cult" of Christianity we can account for - or at least understand why they may not be saved.

As I said - there are the out and out "Christian cults" - and we can fairly easily see where they are wrong and will be shocked when they face God.

But it is the group who think of themselves as "saved" Christians which we wonder about.

Some are super involved in miracles and the like. Some, on the other hand, have more of a "laid back" involvement in Christianity.

Some are super "pious" and "good" people and believe that that piousness will commend them to God in a "win or lose/Heaven or Hell" situation when they see Him face to face.

Some are, while "pious" in their own right - relying totally on the work of Jesus and their faith in that finished work to make them acceptable to God when they meet Him face to face.

I am of that later group. I fear that the group just before my group will be the group to whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you". That - in spite of the pious life they have lived.

Many of that group will seem to have made Jesus "Lord" in their own mind and yet still somehow have not been known by Him at all.

Time will tell I suppose.

But it seems to me that the "odds on" best way to look at these things is to see in the scriptures that we need to live a "pious" life or we will suffer loss of some important kind. At the same time we need to realize that that pious life has nothing to do with our being acceptable to God in the basic "salvation" sense.

It seems to me to not only be the most biblical position but the most "win/win" position as well.

Of course, if I didn't also see that position in the scriptures, I would not hold that position no matter what my gut told me.

But I do indeed see it in the scriptures and I have bet my life on what I see them teaching.

Marvin Knox said:

Actually we do need a clear Bible verse to know that a person who commits suicide is necessarily lost because of it.

Click to expand...

Man knows about God's moral laws.

For it is written,


God will reprove the world of sin.

Believers are chastened of sin so that they are not condemned with the world.


So obviously correction needs to take place about our awareness of God's laws.
In fact, we are told not to be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
For believers can have an evil heart of unbelief and then depart from the living God.
For God's laws are made for unrighteous men who live unrighteously.

You said:

I find it interesting that you not only disagree with the Lord when He told us, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

Click to expand...

1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Law.

The Holy Spirit reproves the world of their sin because they believe not on Jesus.

So believing in Jesus includes being reproved of one’s sin.

Meaning, one has to repent of sin (Ask the Lord for forgiveness of one’s sin along with the natural fruits of repentance - which is forsaking sin and doing good deeds by allowing the Lord to work in one’s life). If one is not being reproved of sin, then they are not truly believing on Jesus. Remember, Jesus said to certain believers who were doing wonderful works to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (sin) (Matthew 7:23).

So believing would include believing the words of Jesus in what He commanded us to do.

For Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46).

In fact, belief is just another way of saying “faith.”;
And faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

James also says,

When Peter failed to walk on water, Jesus told Peter that he had little faith.
So Peter failing to take action properly was a lack of his faith (Matthew 14:28-31).

If Noah did not act upon his faith in believing God to build an Ark, he and his family would have perished in the global flood along with everyone else.

In fact, the global flood is an example to all would live ungodly thereafter (2 Peter 2:5-6).

You said:

You also disagree with Him when He told us, ""Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven." Matthew 12:31

Click to expand...

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9).

“...if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).

“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” (Proverbs 28:13).

“The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas;...” (Matthew 12:41).

You said:

Are you saying that suicide is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I doubt that you are - therefore you are wrong according to the direct testimony of Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

Many Christians today have a strange idea of what the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is.
Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is speaking bad words against the Holy Spirit.

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matthew 12:32).

This is saying if you speak blasphemy (which are bad words) against the Holy Ghost it will not be forgiven in this world (this day and age) and the world to come (i.e. the Millennium).

Committing suicide is self murder; And if a person does this and they stay dead, there is no chance for repentance for them. A person can only repent when they are alive.

The Bible warns even believers of committing certain sins that can cause them to be in danger of hellfire (See Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-29) or to not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). For we are told: Be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

You said:

The verses you provided, by the way, are wafer thin. Any scripture you provide must agree with the Lord as to what is and what is not forgivable.

Click to expand...

Just hitting the disagree button with no actual explanations using the Bible to explain the verses I brought forth does not help to add any weight to your argument. Am I supposed to just take your word for it?

You said:

You seem to not only judge people as to their doctrine about eternal security. You also seem to have set yourself up as the judge of their particular sins. Why doesn't that surprise me?

Click to expand...

I seek to attack the belief and not the person. So no. That would be a false accusation. I am not looking to attack anyone here personally. Everyone here (Including myself) will have to give an account of themselves to God in what they do.

You said:

Belief in a works based salvation usually ends up with the person judging the sins of others and comparing other's holiness with their own.

Click to expand...

But where did I judge anyone’s sin? I didn’t. I also do not seek to attack people personally. So this is just a false accusation and belief on your part. But it is not wrong to judge sinful things. If one does not judge sinful things then they do not have a standard of morality. For if you see injustice in the world, do you simply not care about it? Granted, the way we believers deal with this injustice is not by holding rallies, or hate speeches, but we pray for our enemies, and do good unto them. We seek to love them and preach the truth of God’s Word to them.

Anyways, believing in the Bible’s teaching on Sanctification (according to the New Testament) as a part of the salvation process (Which compliments God’s saving grace) is in no way going to lead believers to act like the Pharisee did in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. It is only when somebody goes back to the Old Law or somebody invents their own rules outside of the New Testament whereby they will become hateful and condemning of others with a lack of love in their hearts. These individuals are of course are on the wide gate path. But we should pray for them, love them, do good unto them. We should be humble and concentrate on our walk more with God (being a light and an example only by the power of the Lord working in us).

In any event, I hope you understand where I am coming from.

May God's peace be upon you today.
With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

Jason0047 said:

Man knows about God's moral laws

Click to expand...

Gods moral laws? ~
Thou shall not murder? Murder is the killing of the innocent.
FYI - no one is innocent. If that were so, there would be no need for Gods Grace.
People are either guilty, or not guilty. No one is innocent.

Gods moral laws? ~
Some say, Thou shall not kill.

Killing ~ Men who kill or be killed ~ military ~ police ~ castle doctrine of man protecting his home, his property, his family.

Killing ~

1 Sam 15:
[3] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

When Peter failed to walk on water, Jesus told Peter that he had little faith.
So Peter failing to take action properly was a lack of his faith (Matthew 14:28-31).

Click to expand...

Matt 17
[20] And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9).

“...if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).

Click to expand...

Those are BIG "IF'S" ! Once those "IF'S" are accomplished..... How do you conclude, that God will go back on His own accomplishment of Forgiving a man ALL of his sins?

How about David, who killed men? And as king, David plotted to kill?
How about Abraham, when he went to rescue Lot?

This is a disagreement between you and I concerning SIN.

Sin is ONLY a transgress AGAINST GOD.
And ONLY God can forgive SIN, precisely because SIN is a transgression AGAINST GOD.

Men who transgress AGAINST men is called a TRESPASS, and Men are supposed to forgive each other, for their OWN trespasses, and for those who trespass AGAINST them.
Men, DO NOT FORGIVE SIN.

Our Transgression, ie OUR SIN, against God, begins at our natural birth. We do not BELIEVE in God, when we are naturally Born. That IS OUR Transgression AGAINST GOD.......NOT BELIEVING!

The WHOLE point of hearing, learning, reading, is to Learn ABOUT GOD, that we may elect TO CHOOSE, to Believe in God, and TELL HIM! And the VERY FIRST thing we are taught IS TO ASK GOD FOR FORGIVENESS, of OUR SIN AGAINST GOD, of our Disbelief!

Additionally, God FORGIVES, the living soul He has imparted into our body, which quickened our own life of our body (ie BLOOD). As our own life (blood, body), is in the process of growing, WE are by default of having Gods living soul within us; we are corrupting our living soul.

By Gods Grace; When we confess to God, BELIEF IN HIM; He forgives, our corrupt flesh, then kills it.
(crucified with Christ); Because ONLY that which IS DEAD, can become BORN "AGAIN".
He further, By His Grace; forgives us of corrupting the Living soul, He has imparted into our body.

Thus, we have a restored soul, SAVED unto God, and by default SAVED from destruction.

Then, does God do His wondrous, powerful, gracious works within us; He gives us a new Heart. WHY?
Because the heart of man, IS where the mans "natural" spirit is.
And what IS a man's "natural" spirit?
It is simply a man's "natural" truth.
While a man CAN have "truth's" in his MIND'S thoughts; A man can ALSO have lies and deceit in his "MINDS" thoughts.
It is in a mans heart, where a mans TRUTH IS. A man can KEEP his truth secret, while LYING, Deceiving, Cheating, Tricking, from the Thoughts in his MIND.

WHEN a MAN confesses his belief IN GOD, to God, WHERE does God want to hear THE thought of that confession coming from? The man's MIND? No. The man's HEART.

WHERE does God go LOOK to SEE where a man's confession coming from? A man's mind? No, a man's heart.

So what is the point of MEN receiving a NEW Heart? It is no secret, mankind IS LIMITED, on knowledge, wisdom, understanding, truths. We have to gather information, and then decide whether or not we think it is true.

But with a NEW HEART - God has given us, an "unblemished" vessel, perfect for HIS SEED to be planted. Perfect for our NEW "born again spirit" to begin a SPIRITUAL life with Gods own Spirit with HIS Truth, His Knowledge, His Wisdom, His Understanding. Our own 24-7 Spirit of God within our own new Heart. <--- THAT is the whole matter, of walking in the spirit!

A body Dead, (yet sanctified, washed in Jesus' blood, our sins forgiven and covered, justified, kept with Christ, for the day of redemption and changing).

A forgiven living soul, forever with the Lord, to never again be separated from God, or experience destruction.

A born again everlasting spirit for us;
By the Seed of thee most High, Priest, King, Mighty, Everlasting, Faithful, Holy God.
Who, shall NEVER depart from us.
AND, WHOSE POWER IN US, shall FOREVER, keep us IN STANDING WITH HIM.

THIS is WHY, a man "born of God"....can NEVER AGAIN SIN!

1 John 3
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Sin is Against God. And Gods OWN Spirit, His OWN Power, will forever KEEP "whosoever", from SIN.

IF, a man HAS BECOME, a "whosoever" man, BORN OF GOD....by what Power DO WE, supersede Gods Power, and dictate, WHOM, God shall or shall not BE forgiving and keep such man unto Himself?

To simply give a broad sweeping comment, that IF a man commits suicide, or kills another man, such a man, has LOST Gods grace, and God will withdraw, His Grace, His Forgiveness, His Restoration, His Seed, His Spirit, from such man?

Gods Grace upon a man, is NOT dependent upon what other men think.
Gods Grace upon a man, IS totally dependent upon that mans heartfelt belief and submission unto God.

Committing suicide is self murder; And if a person does this and they stay dead, there is no chance for repentance for them. A person can only repent when they are alive.

Click to expand...

Committing suicide is self killing.

And a person WHO has been forgiven BY God, and become saved and born again; shall never again SIN against God.

And a person WHO has NOT been forgiven By God, nor become saved and born again; shall remain in SIN against God, whether or not he kills himself.

A man, born of God, that kills himself, has committed a trespass against himself. True, once dead, he can not forgive himself, thus as scripture teaches....

IF a man asks the man for forgives of his trespasses , and forgives those who trespass against him....so too, will God forgive those trespasses.

Such a man committing suicide, thus, can not be forgiven (by God) of his own trespass against himself.

Does the lack of forgiveness of trespasses of man against man, change ANYTHING of Gods forgiveness for the mans transgression AGAINST God? No.

Mark 2
[7] ... who can forgive sins but God only?

Ezek 18
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit:

Ezek 36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:

God is Faithful to Never depart from the man whose true heartfelt belief is confessed to God.

God Bless,
SBC

dogs4thewin said:

True Christians that is to say that they follow Christ and His will and try to live like Him. It does not mean they are sinless, but there are working on it more and more each day, as opposed to playing Christian claiming to be a Christian because it fits and you are expected to be one going through the motions, but not knowing Christ on a personal level.

Click to expand...

It's the hope of salvation. If scarcely shall a righteous man be saved, where then does that leave the ungodly and sinner? Who considers themselves righteous? When The Word compares salvation to the 8 souls saved from the flood as I recall, we are saved by Grace through faith. How can anyone consider themselves to be righteous? I can't but that's just me. However, there are 3 places after death that someone could end up at. Heaven, hell and the new earth. The meek shall inherit the earth.

1Pet.4

1. 
   [18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Eph.2 Verses 8 to 9

1. 
   [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
   [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

lsume said:

. How can anyone consider themselves to be righteous? I can't but that's just me.

Click to expand...

We, I would say, are not to claim we Are Righteous.

The consideration IMO, is Gods consideration.
Meaning, God "accounts" to men for doing "righteousNESS", not BEING "righteous"..

Gen 15
[6] And he (Abram) believed in the LORD; and he (the LORD) counted it to him (Abram) for righteousness.

God Bless,
SBC

I do claim righteousness, just like Paul does in the bible.

PHI 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

But, I certainly don't claim it is anything that I have earned. Christ earned it and imputed/declared it to me. I believed that and have received it, and that's why I boldly approach the throne of God in the righteousness which has justified me to stand before Him. I never earned it, JESUS did He offered it to me and I declare it to be mine.

ROM 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

to truly follow christ is to be in conviction, you follow in mind, body and soul, its not enough to say "i do" you must walk the path as well

Holy cow! I challenged you on the suicide thing and you gave me the whole enchilada again.

Jason0047 said:

Many Christians today have a strange idea of what the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is.
Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is speaking bad words against the Holy Spirit.
“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matthew 12:32). This is saying if you speak blasphemy (which are bad words) against the Holy Ghost it will not be forgiven in this world (this day and age) and the world to come (i.e. the Millennium).

Click to expand...

I know well what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. It is you who seem to think that suicide is it.

All sins can and will be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, since you say that suicide cannot be forgiven, you are equating suicide with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Now - I understand that your strange religion has God forgiving the first million or so sins in a large block the first time you believe on Jesus. At that point, if a person were to die, they would find themselves in Heaven with God rather than Hell as they would have before. That part is right on.

But you also believe that a person loses that salvation as soon as he sins and must believe on Jesus again to be forgiven the particular sin which caused them to be going to Hell now. If they die before they confess and receive forgiveness for that further sin - there is no chance for confession and repentance in this life and they find themselves in Hell.

That makes your religion amount to a very much different religion than mine.

Your religion reminds me a lot of the religion of Mother Theresa who traveled with a priest who could quickly give her absolution if she fell deathly ill or had an accident which appeared to make death immanent. She did this so she would not have to go into either purgatory or Hell when she died.

Her memoirs show her last years to be the most miserable rendition of Christianity than I have ever heard of.

You have managed to take her horrible false religious view of what salvation is all about and bring it over to "evangelical" Protestantism and even do it one better in it's terrible theology.

Jason0047 said:

Just hitting the disagree button with no actual explanations using the Bible to explain the verses I brought forth does not help to add any weight to your argument. Am I supposed to just take your word for it?

Click to expand...

I've done a lot more than just hit the disagree button. I have told you plainly why your false rendition of Christianity is from the pit of Hell.

Jason0047 said:

But where did I judge anyone’s sin?

Click to expand...

You not only warn about the need to be totally sanctified or suffer loss. All evangelicals teach and warn about that.

You also judge those who fail to live up to the demands of you strange religion by saying that they are bound for Hell if they do not confess and repent before death befalls them. Shades of Mother Theresa.

Then, if a person is so overcome by the cares of this world that he sadly commits suicide, you follow him into the grave and condemn him there as well.

Jason0047 said:

Anyways, believing in the Bible’s teaching on Sanctification (according to the New Testament) as a part of the salvation process (Which compliments God’s saving grace) is in no way going to lead believers to act like the Pharisee did in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee.

Click to expand...

Everyone who believes in the eternal security of believers also believes that sanctification is part of the salvation process.

You have an extremely shallow theological definition of the word "salvation". That's part of your problem.

Just as I have for Mother Theresa before you - I pray that you will be allowed into Heaven in spite of your strange view of the believer's relationship with God through Christ.

There are many people I disagree with and debate about eternal security vs. believers willingly leaving the Lord and becoming lost. I don't doubt that they are saved - even though I believe they are wrong about that.

But you, and quite a few others in this forum, seem to have crossed the line from simply believing that a person could conceivably leave the Lord and be lost and preaching a religion of works.

Jesus is in your religion somehow. But He is not the savior most evangelical Christians believe in.

I hope God's grace reaches far enough to save you. I'm just not so sure about that.

Many will call Him Lord and point to the many good works they did in life in His name. He will tell them that He never knew them.

They were workers of iniquity in that they believed and preached another gospel - which in reality was no gospel at all.

I doubt that any who have ever been true believers will find themselves lost when they meet Him face to face - because they were not able to overcome a particular sin in their life, or because they fell victim to a melancholy which eventually caused them to take their life.

I don't doubt though that a great many who are depending on their own works along with that of Christ rather than trusting in the work of Jesus alone for their salvation will be in for a rude awakening when they meet the Lord.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

No, it was not good news for Saul. Nor was Lazarus or Samuel ever in the 'bosom of Abraham'.... If you desire to see why, contrary to many translators, and more accurately in line with ALL Scripture,
see e.w.bullingers account of "lazarus and the rich man" online free in pdf format.

Click to expand...

Luke.16

1. 
   
   [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

He set another man before them, saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed,

Hillsage said:

I do claim righteousness, just like Paul does in the bible.

PHI 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

But, I certainly don't claim it is anything that I have earned. Christ earned it and imputed/declared it to me. I believed that and have received it, and that's why I boldly approach the throne of God in the righteousness which has justified me to stand before Him. I never earned it, JESUS did He offered it to me and I declare it to be mine.

ROM 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Click to expand...

No. You misunderstand the imputed righteousness of Christ. The Bible says,

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).

Jason0047 said:

No. You misunderstand the imputed righteousness of Christ. The Bible says,

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).

Click to expand...

No it is 'still' you who does not understand the difference between imputed righteousness and imparted righteousness. We've been down this road before and you remain in the category of;
'A man who has been convinced against his will is always of the same opinion still.'
The imputed righteousness of Christ is what gets you into heaven in the hereafter. You never did anything good enough to earn it and you can't do anything bad enough to lose it. The imputed righteousness is what makes you safe IN Christ. The imparted righteousness of Christ is what makes you Christ LIKE here and now.

PS. And the verse you quoted "has to do with being "cleansed" from sin here and now not being eternally 'forgiven' now and forever.

Marvin Knox said:

Holy cow! I challenged you on the suicide thing and you gave me the whole enchilada again.

I know well what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. It is you who seem to think that suicide is it.

All sins can and will be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, since you say that suicide cannot be forgiven, you are equating suicide with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Now - I understand that your strange religion has God forgiving the first million or so sins in a large block the first time you believe on Jesus. At that point, if a person were to die, they would find themselves in Heaven with God rather than Hell as they would have before. That part is right on.

But you also believe that a person loses that salvation as soon as he sins and must believe on Jesus again to be forgiven the particular sin which caused them to be going to Hell now. If they die before they confess and receive forgiveness for that further sin - there is no chance for confession and repentance in this life and they find themselves in Hell.

That makes your religion amount to a very much different religion than mine.

Your religion reminds me a lot of the religion of Mother Theresa who traveled with a priest who could quickly give her absolution if she fell deathly ill or had an accident which appeared to make death immanent. She did this so she would not have to go into either purgatory or Hell when she died.

Her memoirs show her last years to be the most miserable rendition of Christianity than I have ever heard of.

You have managed to take her horrible false religious view of what salvation is all about and bring it over to "evangelical" Protestantism and even do it one better in it's terrible theology.

I've done a lot more than just hit the disagree button. I have told you plainly why your false rendition of Christianity is from the pit of Hell.

You not only warn about the need to be totally sanctified or suffer loss. All evangelicals teach and warn about that.

You also judge those who fail to live up to the demands of you strange religion by saying that they are bound for Hell if they do not confess and repent before death befalls them. Shades of Mother Theresa.

Then, if a person is so overcome by the cares of this world that he sadly commits suicide, you follow him into the grave and condemn him there as well.

Everyone who believes in the eternal security of believers also believes that sanctification is part of the salvation process.

You have an extremely shallow theological definition of the word "salvation". That's part of your problem.

Just as I have for Mother Theresa before you - I pray that you will be allowed into Heaven in spite of your strange view of the believer's relationship with God through Christ.

There are many people I disagree with and debate about eternal security vs. believers willingly leaving the Lord and becoming lost. I don't doubt that they are saved - even though I believe they are wrong about that.

But you, and quite a few others in this forum, seem to have crossed the line from simply believing that a person could conceivably leave the Lord and be lost and preaching a religion of works.

Jesus is in your religion somehow. But He is not the savior most evangelical Christians believe in.

I hope God's grace reaches far enough to save you. I'm just not so sure about that.

Many will call Him Lord and point to the many good works they did in life in His name. He will tell them that He never knew them.

They were workers of iniquity in that they believed and preached another gospel - which in reality was no gospel at all.

I doubt that any who have ever been true believers will find themselves lost when they meet Him face to face - because they were not able to overcome a particular sin in their life, or because they fell victim to a melancholy which eventually caused them to take their life.

I don't doubt though that a great many who are depending on their own works along with that of Christ rather than trusting in the work of Jesus alone for their salvation will be in for a rude awakening when they meet the Lord.

Click to expand...

Had never heard that story of mo Teresa. Was it a reliable source? It certainly doesn't surprise me. Those who give 'lip service' to the finished work of Christ have simply yoked themselves to a yoke which is made for 'one'. And they ain't him!

Hillsage said:

Had never heard that story of mo Teresa. Was it a reliable source? It certainly doesn't surprise me...

Click to expand...

Yes.
For many years now, the "facts" came out. Find out by online searching, although hundreds of sites have been published in the last few years to 'spin' it / hide it/ keep others from finding out. i.e. it might not be very easy to find an honest site - it is much more difficult today than it was ten years ago.

Hillsage said:

PS. And the verse you quoted "has to do with being "cleansed" from sin here and now not being eternally 'forgiven' now and forever.

Click to expand...

Less opinion. More Scripture.
Prove it with Scripture that 1 John 1:7 is not dealing with eternal salvation.

Side Note 1:

The word "fellowship" is not proof that the epistle is not talking about salvation.

Fellowship is tied to salvation. For here are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

Side Note 2:

Oh, and PS: There is only "Imparted/Imputed Righteousness" & "Practical Righteousness." This is also called "Positional Righteousness" & "Progressive Righteousness."

Hillsage said:

Had never heard that story of mo Teresa. Was it a reliable source? It certainly doesn't surprise me. Those who give 'lip service' to the finished work of Christ have simply yoked themselves to a yoke which is made for 'one'. And they ain't him!

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The story from her own lips reminds me very much of the struggle Martin Luther went through on his way to salvation. His utter anguish of soul has been repeated by many in Roman Catholicism over the years.

But it does not appear that Mother Theresa was able to break through to an understanding of justification by grace through faith. Nor does it even appear that she struggled to find truth anywhere but the organization which had so enslaved her in life.

It's a pity that every person who names the name of Christ in some way or who does good works in His name will not necessarily stand justified before God through faith in the work of Jesus on their behalf when they meet God.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yes.
For many years now, the "facts" came out. Find out by online searching, although hundreds of sites have been published in the last few years to 'spin' it / hide it/ keep others from finding out. i.e. it might not be very easy to find an honest site - it is much more difficult today than it was ten years ago.

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Deception from 'the church', to deceive the 'body of Christ' you say!!!!! May it never be.

I don't feel moved enough to pursue wading through the web, to see whether or not, it's true. My spirit bore witness (IMO) the instant I read it. It simply makes so much sense, to be true, IMO also. So I'm going to ASSUME that it is true (yes I know about ASSuming). Hopefully we don't rile the church of Rome up with challenge to defend our POV.

To be equally yoked WITH Christ certainly releases me from having to pull that which I could not. And whatever/whenever I lack, He is truly faithful to finish what HE has started in me.

PHI 1:6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Marvin Knox said:

The story from her own lips reminds me very much of the struggle Martin Luther went through on his way to salvation.

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Recently lightly reading online, I read that he was usually depressed, maybe had bouts of severe depression.
Did he ever find freedom from such depression, if it was true he was so depressed (I know he jumped for joy and rejoiced when he got his letter of freedom), as far as you know ?

SkyWriting said:

These are better translated as "too few" so that you don't imagine your own short list.

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Sorry, too few is not in the manuscripts. πολλοι γαρ εισιν κηλτοι ολιγοι δε εκλεκτοι Matthew 22:14 ajective, nominative, plural, masculine; see strong's G2822 invited, chosen. Compare 1 Corinthians 1:2; Romans 1:6-7; Romans 8:28; . Have you considered how hard it is to get through the "eye of the needle"? LUKE 18:25

lsume said:

How can anyone consider themselves to be righteous? I can't but that's just me.

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How often and how many does YHWH SAY in SCRIPTURE
ARE the ekklesia (immersed ones) living in the assemblies in YESHUA called and chosen and set apart (out from the world) by YHWH HIMSELF
and they all (while still on earth)
ARE LIVING IN UNION, as ONE, (ECHAD) WITH YESHUA ?