Female Pastors?

[Paidiske]

I think you're reading what you want to see in the words. A striker is someone striking someone as in someone who can't control their anger and is violent. Not exactly a common phenomenon among women but quite common among men. The language used here is clearly geared towards men. At least it is when I read it.

And I think you're taking a very shallow reading of one English translation. Most don't say "striker," and the underlying Greek is not necessarily connoting physical violence.

The language only seems "geared towards men" because of stereotypes and assumptions.

Look, I admit its a dilemma. 50% of the population is female yet the Bible seems to be written towards mainly men. But maybe this is God suggesting women approach this in a different way. We all want to contribute. Even atheists want to contribute after all. Its instinctual. A wise person would seek the best way to contribute. I believe almost all women, if not all women, work much better behind the scenes, supporting others, not having to make pivotal decisions. Decisions that can't be easily reversed later because they changed their mind. Not that men don't have problems changing their mind of course. Just my observations when I see them at work.

Wow. There are those stereotypes again!

But yes, a wise person would seek the best way to contribute. A wise Christian would prayerfully and thoughtfully take account of their gifts, skills, experience and personality, and seek God's leading on how best to use those to contribute to the mission of the Church. But here's the thing (as I learned through personal experience!); when you ask God, "Here I am, strengths and weaknesses, everything I have; only tell me where you want me to serve," you don't get to control the answer. And God calls some to leadership positions; men and women both.

As for making pivotal decisions, generally, in the church, pivotal decision-making is collaborative. Not a matter of a single individual ruling by fiat.

No woman "rules her house". She cares for and nurtures her house. Men rule. This is instinctual from the beginning of time. Do we rule well? Perhaps not! But we try!

I see you haven't met my mother-in-law.

In all seriousness, though, this claim is just silly. Even in Paul's day there were women who were heads of households. (And, here's an interesting linguistic link; the word here for someone who manages their household well, is a participle form of the word Paul uses to describe Phoebe as a "benefactor" of many).

If the clergy lived on site it might be much more efficient and less costly for everyone. That's how it used to be I think. Seems to make sense. Accommodation is our biggest expense usually, after all.

I'm just going to ignore the rest of your ridiculous slander that church leaders only do what they do for the pay. (Seriously, I could make more money in the secular world tomorrow...)

But we do mostly live on site. I live on site. It's not a perfect system (nothing is), but on the whole it works fairly well.

what better job could a Godly woman have then to spend her time teaching young women to do the right thing (which is what the BIBLE says)

Nobody can have a better job than the one God has uniquely created and gifted that person for, and called them to.

As for exercising authority, I would point out (again, what feels like for the umpteenth time) that any authority exercised in ministry is not personal authority. It is the authority of the church, and the person in leadership is as much subject to it as anyone else (in fact, in many cases, much more bound by it than anyone else).

 

[public hermit]

preachers should NOT be paid wage , it is up to the preacher 1st to take care themselves (to not be seen as a debtor and begger

Why should that be the case when Jesus and his disciples, many of whom were women, were supported by others? And, they were supported materially by women.

Soon afterwards he went on through cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. The twelve were with him, as well as some women who had been cured of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Herod’s steward Chuza, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their resources. Luke 8.1-3

When the the kingdom of God entered this world, things were turned upside down: men were in need of women helping them. Of course, that was only needed because in this world men have, sinfully, lorded it over women. In the kingdom, where our tendency to carve the divine image into groups no longer exists, there is no male or female. It's only in this world where the kingdom is best represented by women, and that's because men have a very hard time becoming like Christ and self-emptying (kenosis).

 

[Clare73]

No.
Though no one has yet explained what "exercise authority " means.

Govern the assembly, teach doctrine.

 

[Paidiske]

It's interesting to unpack what we mean by "govern the assembly." Most churches have a council, board, or other similar governance body, which generally sits within structures of denominational oversight. It's not something done by one person alone.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It's interesting to unpack what we mean by "govern the assembly." Most churches have a council, board, or other similar governance body, which generally sits within structures of denominational oversight. It's not something done by one person alone.

Do you mean "most denominations" when you type "most churches"?

I ask because there are very many independent protestant churches governed chiefly by their pastor. And the ancient churches have a very different structure, from the one mentioned in your post, for parish governance.

 

[Paidiske]

Do you mean "most denominations" when you type "most churches"?

I ask because there are very many independent protestant churches governed chiefly by their pastor.

I actually meant most churches. I thought a pastor-who-controls-everything structure was relatively rare (it is in my experience). And, I would add, deeply unhealthy!

And the ancient churches have a very different structure, from the one mentioned in your post, for parish governance.

The details vary, but don't even most Catholic and Orthodox parishes have laity on some sort of parish council, governing property and the finances, and making local decisions about mission priorities, and so on?

I mean, I know Anglicans give laity more governance power than other episcopal churches do, especially through our synods, but I don't think it's generally absent elsewhere?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

governing property and the finances, and making local decisions about mission priorities, and so on?

No, advising but not governing.

 

[Paidiske]

No, advising but not governing.

So a Catholic parish priest has the last word on every single matter? Money, property decisions, outreach activities, everything? Far out, that seems so unhealthy. And so much pressure on one person. I'm grateful I don't work in that model!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So a Catholic parish priest has the last word on every single matter? Money, property decisions, outreach activities, everything? Far out, that seems so unhealthy. And so much pressure on one person. I'm grateful I don't work in that model!

He is always answerable to the bishop and the bishop hears from the congregation when anything seems amiss to the faithful. Is that not similar in an Anglican parish church? It's a little surprising to see your reaction given the role of the episcopal office in those churches that have bishops.

 

[Paidiske]

He is always answerable to the bishop and the bishop hears from the congregation when anything seems amiss to the faithful. Is that not similar in an Anglican parish church? It's a little surprising to see your reaction given the role of the episcopal office in those churches that have bishops.

Parts of it are similar and parts not. The way things work in the dioceses I've ministered in (each having slightly different canon law, just for fun), generally clergy are responsible for liturgy and teaching. Laity (the parish council) are responsible for money and property. We're supposed to collaborate on the overall mission of the parish. So (for example) although I can contribute to parish discussions about money, those decisions are not mine to make, and I have no access to accounts etc. It forces us to work together, which is sometimes less efficient but I think helpful for growth in grace.

I would not want responsibility for everything on my own. It's too much for one person, and we are so much better off calling on the gifts, skills, experience and so on of a whole team of people.

What I have observed in practice is that although it's true that we're answerable to the bishop, and that the congregation may complain to the bishop if there's something wrong, most people are extremely reluctant to do that. Complaints to the bishop are probably the exception, rather than the norm. (I've had a situation recently where some stuff happened in a neighbouring parish which had people very upset (quite justifiably, in my view), but they were talking to me about it rather than to the bishop. But when I suggested that the bishop was the right person to hear these concerns, they didn't want to go to him. I am not really quite sure why).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What I have observed in practice is that although it's true that we're answerable to the bishop, and that the congregation may complain to the bishop if there's something wrong, most people are extremely reluctant to do that. Complaints to the bishop are probably the exception, rather than the norm. (I've had a situation recently where some stuff happened in a neighbouring parish which had people very upset (quite justifiably, in my view), but they were talking to me about it rather than to the bishop. But when I suggested that the bishop was the right person to hear these concerns, they didn't want to go to him. I am not really quite sure why).

In the Archdiocese of Perth (where I am located) parishioners in my parish are quite willing to write to the archbishop, I have myself, I have also written to the curia (but about a liturgical translation rather than any parish matter). So maybe Catholics and their bishops are more involved than seems to be the case in what you've written about the diocese you're in (or were in).

 

[Paidiske]

Maybe. I suspect also that in the wake of clergy abuse scandals and so on, there's a bit of a loss of perspective; by which I mean that people feel they can only speak up about the most serious and grave abuses, and that small matters shouldn't be the reason for a fuss; or they fear that their clergy will be punished severely for matters that might be handled with a simple conversation.

I have twice in the eight years I've been ordained, had parishioners raise matters they were concerned about (with regard to me) with my superiors. One was a man with significant mental health issues, who complained about my "rudeness" after I rebuffed his sexual harassment (that complaint was duly dropped after a conversation with me). The other, believe it or not, was a complaint about me not keeping the parish house (my home) sufficiently tidy, when the person complaining had come to visit after I'd literally been sick in bed for a week. The archdeacon came to visit, had a cup of tea with me, looked around the house and said, "I don't know why I'm here." Bless him.

 

[Strong in Him]

Govern the assembly, teach doctrine.

Why is that "Exercising authority"?
How is teaching the Gospel "exercising authority" over a man?
How is leading a church, exercising authority" wen the reality is that a lot of churches have a church council/meeting, made up of elected members of the congregation, who make, and vote on, decisions?
Did the woman at the well "exercise authority" when she went back to her village and said "come and meet a man ...... could this be the Messiah"?
What about Mary Magdalene when she went into the locked room where the male disciples were, told them that Jesus was alive and gave them a message from him to go to Galilee? Jesus chose, told and gave her the authority to do that.
Apart from which, I am told that the word actually means to snatch authority from.
How does someone snatch authority from someone else - especially when that other person has freely given them authority in the first place?

Some people seem to think that a Minister tells people what he/she expects them to do in "his" church, and also tells them how to live their lives.

 

[All Glory To God]

By about the fourth century we start to get instructions and decisions recorded that women should not be allowed to take up particular roles (although even then, particularly with deacons, the evidence is mixed). . .

I have focused on this part of the argument because it's really what I want to deal with. Your main argument has been translations dispute and to that I simply say I think I can trust the people who put the Bible together and defined the trinity.

I know for fact the protestant reformers did not teach women could be Pastors.

So this leaves the early church and if that can be called to be a witness in support for women pastors.

I say the early church unanimously did not allow women as Pastors, you denied this. And we also had some Roman Catholic representation in this thread who affirm there were no women priests in the early church. If you believe that there have been Women Pastors in the early Church you are going to have to provide serious evidence or this idea of yours goes unproven. And this would mean the early church would not be a witness to this theory.

 

[Paidiske]

So this leaves the early church and if that can be called to be a witness in support for women pastors.

I say the early church unanimously did not allow women as Pastors, you denied this... If you believe that there have been Women Pastors in the early Church you are going to have to provide serious evidence or this idea of yours goes unproven. And this would mean the early church would not be a witness to this theory.

I have provided you with information about a number of sources. Have you, for example, googled mosaics of women priests and bishops? For examples, see here: Archeological Evidence for Women in Church Leadership

 

[All Glory To God]

I have provided you with information about a number of sources. Have you, for example, googled mosaics of women priests and bishops? For examples, see here: Archeological Evidence for Women in Church Leadership

So no church records? Nothing from any synods or councils that would have officially recognised women as priests? Just old poetry.....

Okay if this is the kind of ''evidence'' that persuaded you that women were pastors in the early church for me it does not cut it. If the church did not recognise it, then there is a very high probability, it never happened.

Lacking the necessary evidence you need and apparently not having a licence from God to preach behind the pulpit, will you consider stepping down from your position now?

 

[Paidiske]

So no church records? Nothing from any synods or councils that would have officially recognised women as priests? Just old poetry.....

Old poetry? Did you not see the inscriptions, mosaics, and so on? Do you not realise that this is important archaeological evidence?

If the church did not recognise it, then there is a very high probability, it never happened.

Ah. None so blind as those who will not see, they say.

Lacking the necessary evidence you need and apparently not having a licence from God to preach behind the pulpit, will you consider stepping down from your position now?

Do you seriously think you have given me any reason to?

First of all, I have enough evidence - both within and around Scripture - to at least seriously raise the possibility that in the earliest church women were not excluded from ordained or leadership roles. I have evidence that throughout church history, God has called women and women have responded to the fullest extent that they have been able, and that this has been to the glory of God.

Secondly, I know my own call from God. I have carefully, thoughtfully and prayerfully tested it over many years. I have lived as an ordained person for eight years and experienced for myself the fitness of this role for my particular gifts and self. I have seen the fruit of my ministry.

Thirdly, my church has, carefully, thoughtfully and prayerfully discerned that women may be ordained. I hold authority within that church, which has rigorously tested and affirmed my own vocation.

So. I believe God has called me to this. My church has tested and affirmed that vocation. I live and work faithfully as a priest whose ministry is effective and fruitful.

And I stand in a tradition of women responding faithfully and fruitfully to the calls God has placed upon their lives, which goes all the way back to the Hebrew matriarchs; through Mary, the mother of Jesus; Mary Magdalene, apostle to the apostles; Phoebe the deacon and Junia the apostle; through the martyrs, monastics, teachers, prophets and evangelists; through Florence Li Tim-Oi and all those women who followed her as Anglican deacons, priests and bishops, and all those women in other denominations who have served as their churches have allowed.

God has called me to this, in an absolutely life-changing, radical encounter with God; and no half-baked argument from an anonymous person on the internet, who has demonstrated a clear lack of knowledge of the subject matter, even comes close to gainsaying that.

I will step down when God calls me home.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

For examples, see here: Archeological Evidence for Women in Church Leadership

Curiosity makes me want to ask: is the evidence obtained from Catholic Church tombs and inscriptions or from other sources outside of the Catholic Church of ancient times?

It seems right to check the sources for validity, after all, gnostic, non-trinitarian, and other groups existed that were outside of the Catholic Church and they may have had female prophets, priests, bishops, and any number of other offices.

 

[Paidiske]

Curiosity makes me want to ask: is the evidence obtained from Catholic Church tombs and inscriptions or from other sources outside of the Catholic Church of ancient times?

Well, the first inscription shown there is from inside a church in North Africa, so...

I'm not going to google and verify every single one for you, but I've given you a starting point to do your own research.

 

[Strong in Him]

Lacking the necessary evidence you need and apparently not having a licence from God to preach behind the pulpit, will you consider stepping down from your position now?

Of course she has a licence to preach.
Paidiske is called by God; ordained and licence by her church.