Female Pastors?

[ICONO'CLAST]

1tim3.
If a man
Husband of one wife
Ruleth his own house
Having his children
For if a MAN knows not how to rule HIS own house
Not a novice, so He does not fall
He must have a good report.

Wives are mentioned down in verse 11.
Vs.15 says these things MUSTbe.

 

[Paidiske]

The point is the qualifications of a man...one woman type of MAN
Not a woman.

No, the point is monogamy, rather than promiscuity.

You are rebelling ...

This kind of comment is likely to fall foul of CF's rules about personal attacks and flaming. I suggest you keep to arguing the point, not the person.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

No, the point is monogamy, rather than promiscuity.



This kind of comment is likely to fall foul of CF's rules about personal attacks and flaming. I suggest you keep to arguing the point, not the person.

Answer post 41....all those things mentioned are found in chapter 3.
Explain them as they are written.
Not one is a qualification for any woman...because Paul forbid them already.

 

[Strong in Him]

It's for men alone when it comes to the assembly.

Well clearly no one's told God that.

 

[Strong in Him]

Paul was.exceedingly clear.

If he had been exceedingly clear, there would not be so many debates about this - not just on CF, but among clergy and theologians too.

 

[Strong in Him]

1tim3.
If a man
Husband of one wife
Ruleth his own house
Having his children
For if a MAN knows not how to rule HIS own house
Not a novice, so He does not fall
He must have a good report.

Wives are mentioned down in verse 11.
Vs.15 says these things MUSTbe.

So a man can't be a Pastor unless he is married and has children?
A man can't be ordained, or must lose his ordination, if he can't control his children? If he gets drunk? Has a temper? A man can be a brilliant Bible scholar and have pastoral gifts but not be allowed to be ordained because he has no self control, loves money or is quarrelsome?

All these are listed in 1 Tim 3, and you have just said that they MUST be.
Yet how many times do we see people complaining about men being unsuitable for ordination for one, or more, of these reasons?
These qualities may be a factor in ordination but they are not an exhaustive list - there is no mention of faith, prayer, trusting God, using your gifts etc.

 

[Strong in Him]

Answer post 41....all those things mentioned are found in chapter 3.
Explain them as they are written.
Not one is a qualification for any woman...because Paul forbid them already.

Doesn't matter what Paul might have forbid; it is God who calls.
The same God who called Deborah to be judge over the who nation, solving men's disputes.
The same God who called Huldah to be a prophetess and led the male priests to consult her when they wanted a word from the Lord.
The same God who chose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection. God raised his Son Jesus from the dead. Who was the first person to see him, speak to him and was trusted to give the Good News to others? His loyal disciples? No, they were all in hiding. It was Mary Magdalene.

 

[Paidiske]

1tim3.
If a man
Husband of one wife
Ruleth his own house
Having his children
For if a MAN knows not how to rule HIS own house
Not a novice, so He does not fall
He must have a good report.

Wives are mentioned down in verse 11.
Vs.15 says these things MUSTbe.

Not, "if a man." Ei tis - if anyone.
Husband of one wife - an expression meaning monogamous.
"his" (house, children) - the generic masculine which does not exclude women (actually there's no possessive pronoun attached to children in the Greek)
"he does not fall" - the verb (3rd person singular aorist active subjunctive) is not gendered in the Greek, nor is there a masculine pronoun. It's inserted into English translations.
"he must have" - again, generic masculine which does not exclude women.

In many places in Scripture we read a generic masculine as including women; it is inconsistent to insist on not doing so in a passage such as this.

Not one is a qualification for any woman...because Paul forbid them already.

If Paul had forbidden women from ministering he wouldn't have elsewhere commended women in ministry. You have to deal with the whole of his writings, not just one or two passages.

 

[Strong in Him]

Of course women can be protestant pastors. Why couldn't they?

Try that again - without the implied criticism of Protestant churches.

 

[John Caldwell]

I do not believe women should be pastors (I believe there are roles for each gender reflecting the roles of the Son and Father in redemptive history).

This means I would not attend a church with a woman pastor.

This does NOT mean I would talk poorly about a woman pastor or churches who have women preachers.

I understand also that this is an issue that can be interpreted different ways. For example, while I view Paul as teaching that pastors are to be men, I interpret men having to have short hair and wear head coverings while women are to have long hair and keep their hair uncovered as a cultural illustration.

One could accuse me of being inconsistent, and perhaps rightly so.

Maybe my view is influenced by already having a woman telling me when I'm wrong.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I do not believe women should be pastors (I believe there are roles for each gender reflecting the roles of the Son and Father in redemptive history).

Does that make you the father or the son because the correct interpretation is son and church.

 

[John Caldwell]

Does that make you the father or the son because the correct interpretation is son and church.

Doesn't make me either. The church does not belong to us (She belongs to Christ).

I was simply comparing gender roles as presented by Paul to the roles of the Father and Son in the Trinity (I'm a Trinitarian) . . . That it is not about ability, worth, etc, but roles and duties.

That said, it is my understanding (which effects my actions), not something I push on others.

 

[ServantJohn]

If "I don't allow a woman to teach a man" then if we replace the gender terms with a name
I don't allow Alice to teach Bill.. How can we then insert "unless it is over the internet or on a chat group, or in a ZOOM class, or in a news letter, or in a math class"??

Suppose Alice wants to teach Bill how to read, or speak English, or drive a car?

Due to the context. Right after Paul writes that he does not allow a woman to teach, the passage goes on to talk about the leadership qualifications in the church. Priscilla and Aquila explained to Apollos "the Way of God to him more accurately" after pulling him aside, so not from the pulpit (Acts 18:26). The same married couple that Paul recognizes in Romans. Though this is not as explicit as when Paul said they are not to teach, the fact that no corrections are given to Priscilla should not be overlooked. Women do have a lot to give in the church and there is a lot men can learn from women. From the examples of Priscilla and Aquilla, that place to learn from them is outside of the church. I don't know why God has forbidden them from holding positions of authority or teaching men in the church beyond what Scripture says which refers back to the Fall. Some have taken it to believe that women are more easily deceived, but that cannot be taken from this passage. It's simply one of the results of the Fall which impacts their roles in the church.

 

[John Caldwell]

If Paul had forbidden women from ministering he wouldn't have elsewhere commended women in ministry. You have to deal with the whole of his writings, not just one or two passages.

To be fair, there is a difference between having men as the pastor of a church and forbidding women from the ministry.

Paul definitely did not forbid women from the ministry. But he did write specific instructions of how women are to participate in the ministry and in what roles. The best argument I can find for women as pastors is that this was cultural (like Paul stating that women have long hair because her hair has been given to her as a covering as opposed to men having to cover their heads in worship).

 

[ServantJohn]

Seems seminary would be out, based on its nature.

Depends on how the seminary is set up. Are they having communion, worshipping, or praying in the class (besides personal prayers right before exams lol)? I don't see seminary or their classes as a local church.

 

[Strong in Him]

To be fair, there is a difference between having men as the pastor of a church and forbidding women from the ministry.

Paul definitely did not forbid women from the ministry. But he did write specific instructions of how women are to participate in the ministry and in what roles.

Such as?
Paul doesn't say anywhere that women cannot be ordained or have pastoral charge of churches.

The best argument I can find for women as pastors is that this was cultural (like Paul stating that women have long hair because her hair has been given to her as a covering as opposed to men having to cover their heads in worship).

So what makes you observe one cultural teaching but not another one?
I don't think women pastors is purely cultural; a lot can be learnt by looking at Scripture as a whole, and the verses in context.

 

[ServantJohn]

Would like to restate that Mike Winger does a really good job of covering this topic from both sides, so I encourage you to watch his video series on Women in Ministry as part of your research to find out what the Bible teaches on this topic.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Not, "if a man." Ei tis - if anyone.
Husband of one wife - an expression meaning monogamous.
"his" (house, children) - the generic masculine which does not exclude women (actually there's no possessive pronoun attached to children in the Greek)
"he does not fall" - the verb (3rd person singular aorist active subjunctive) is not gendered in the Greek, nor is there a masculine pronoun. It's inserted into English translations.
"he must have" - again, generic masculine which does not exclude women.

In many places in Scripture we read a generic masculine as including women; it is inconsistent to insist on not doing so in a passage such as this.



If Paul had forbidden women from ministering he wouldn't have elsewhere commended women in ministry. You have to deal with the whole of his writings, not just one or two passages.

So you are suggesting it could be if any woman be the husband of one wife???

 

[Strong in Him]

So you are suggesting it could be if any woman be the husband of one wife???

Husband of ONE wife; not several.

 

[John Caldwell]

Such as?
Paul doesn't say anywhere that women cannot be ordained or have pastoral charge of churches.



So what makes you observe one cultural teaching but not another one?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 where Paul wrote: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission" comes to mind.

The reason I can observe one cultural teaching and not another is that I do not believe both to be cultural teachings.

Where Paul mentions the role of women it is a topic, but with head coverings it is an illustration.