Feeling secure in our salvation?

[stumpjumper]

I don't believe in OSAS as I do believe that we can turn from God and reject God's grace.

But if we keep our hope and faith in Christ, I do not think that it is a false hope:

[bible]Romans 8:38-39[/bible]

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I don't believe in OSAS as I do believe that we can turn from God and reject God's grace.

But if we keep our hope and faith in Christ, I do not think that it is a false hope:

[bible]Romans 8:38-39[/bible]

Agreed..

Forgive me.....

 

[seekingpurity047]

They certainly did fall away... but not everyone who has fallen away was a wolf. Many are sheep that the wolves desire to devour.

Forgive me....

w0w... I would just llove to know where this is found!

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[seekingpurity047]

Ok, you are not saved bc of your intellectual believe or bc your faith, that are effects and not causes.

Now you are saved for the ethernity, bc of a mechanical deed like to wet into the water (baptism)?

Or simply bc you are born predestinated?

I really cant undestand calvinists...

I'm sorry, I'm afraid that I do not understand what you are trying to explain.

We are saved by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone, in Christ alone. As simple as that.

To the glory of God ALONE,

Randy

 

[seekingpurity047]

I don't believe in OSAS as I do believe that we can turn from God and reject God's grace.

But if we keep our hope and faith in Christ, I do not think that it is a false hope:

[bible]Romans 8:38-39[/bible]

Foolishness! By not believing OSAS, you are denying Rom. 8:38-39.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This includes ourselves.

Recognize also: "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." John 6:37

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[stumpjumper]

Foolishness! By not believing OSAS, you are denying Rom. 8:38-39.

Romans 8:38-39 does not support OSAS.

It simply supports salvation by grace through faith. Paul was convinced in the love of God because of his faith not because he could not fall away. OSAS is contradicted flat out by a number of passages...

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This includes ourselves.

It includes ourselves IF we remain in faith, hope, and love.

OSAS presumes salvation and is flatly contradicted by other scripture that warns of falling away:

1 Cor. 10:12 (ESV)
Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

1 Peter 5:8 (ESV)
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

2 Peter 3:17 (ESV)
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Hebrews 2:1-3 (ESV)
Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard.

Hebrews 3:12 (ESV)
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

 

[a_ntv]

I don't believe in OSAS as I do believe that we can turn from God and reject God's grace.

But if we keep our hope and faith in Christ, I do not think that it is a false hope:

[bible]Romans 8:38-39[/bible]

No, Romans 8:38-39 is not a hope: this is a certainty.

But Romans 8-:38-39 do NOT list who actualy can separe us from Him: it is only ourself that can separe us form Him.

We are saved by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone, in Christ alone. As simple as that.

I again cant undestand. You use a passive ('we are saved') not to be clear.

God saves who? (with only his grace, that is ok)

Who has a simply intellectual believe?
Who has faith?
Who makes a mechanical deed like to wet into the water (baptism)?
Who tries to follow Him with all own heart and all own deeds?
Anyone?
Only who is born lucky and predestinated?

Pax in Christ !

 

[seekingpurity047]

No, Romans 8:38-39 is not a hope: this is a certainty.

But Romans 8-:38-39 do NOT list who actualy can separe us from Him: it is only ourself that can separe us form Him.

I guess we are, therefore, making God's love conditional and His saving grace based on works... which is false according to Rom. 11:6.

I again cant undestand. You use a passive ('we are saved') not to be clear.

God saves who? (with only his grace, that is ok)

Whomever He chooses.

Who has a simply intellectual believe?

Whomever He chooses. What do you mean by intellectual believe anyway? Those who are truly trusting in Christ alone for their salvation are saved and will be saved at the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6).

Who has faith?

Saving faith? Whomever He wills.

Who makes a mechanical deed like to wet into the water (baptism)?

Mechanical deed? What in the world?

Who tries to follow Him with all own heart and all own deeds?

All the time? Nobody.

Anyone?

Nope.

Only who is born lucky and predestinated?

Pax in Christ !

Luck has nothing to do with it. God chooses, that's it. It's not a matter of luck. It's called unconditional election by His unconditional love.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[stumpjumper]

No, Romans 8:38-39 is not a hope: this is a certainty.

But Romans 8-:38-39 do NOT list who actualy can separe us from Him: it is only ourself that can separe us form Him.

It is a collective not an individual certainty, though. If it was an individual certainly then Paul would be saying that nothing, not even his own free will, could separate himself from God. This is not the case as we can reject God's grace ...

It is collective in that nothing can separate the Saints from the love of God if they accept God's grace in faith, hope, and love...

 

[seekingpurity047]

Romans 8:38-39 does not support OSAS.

Yes it does. Read the text: "Nothing else in all creation." Umm... from what I understand, humans are part of creation.

It simply supports salvation by grace through faith. Paul was convinced in the love of God because of his faith not because he could not fall away. OSAS is contradicted flat out by a number of passages...

Go ahead, rob God of His glory.

It includes ourselves IF we remain in faith, hope, and love.

Which, if we are trusting in Christ alone for our salvation, will inevitably occur, therefore, the IF is irrelevant.

OSAS presumes salvation and is flatly contradicted by other scripture that warns of falling away:

1 Cor. 10:12 (ESV)
Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Fall from what? Fall into what? Into temptation? Hmm... fall into sin? When looking at the context of that verse, it says sin. Yet, one has to recognize that even when we are trusting Christ alone for our salvation, we still have the flesh to deal with, this is called spiritual warfare.

1 Peter 5:8 (ESV)
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Who? What? This has nothing to do with losing salvation. See above text.

2 Peter 3:17 (ESV)
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Stability, not salvation. Two completely different things. We sin all the time, recognize that.

Hebrews 2:1-3 (ESV)
Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard.

Neglection, read the whole passage again. It's telling us what will we do if we ignore such a wonderful gift which is the gift of salvation given to everyone who believes (Rom. 1:16).

Hebrews 3:12 (ESV)
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Again, falling into sin.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[stumpjumper]

Yes it does. Read the text: "Nothing else in all creation." Umm... from what I understand, humans are part of creation.

Go ahead, rob God of His glory.

Excuse me?

Nobody is robbing God of His glory as we are simply pointing out that OSAS is contradicted by scripture. It is not robbing God of glory to point out a simple fact that scripture, as well as reason, points out that man is able to reject God's grace. Able is different from free just so you know...

Which, if we are trusting in Christ alone for our salvation, will inevitably occur, therefore, the IF is irrelevant.

How are we trusting in Christ? Because we have accepted God's grace and we have faith. We can of course turn from that faith and reject God's grace as the above passages that I cited show...

Fall from what? Fall into what? Into temptation? Hmm... fall into sin? When looking at the context of that verse, it says sin.

We can fall back into sin and unbelief. The Augsburg Confessions got that right...

Neglection, read the whole passage again. It's telling us what will we do if we ignore such a wonderful gift which is the gift of salvation given to everyone who believes (Rom. 1:16).

Again, falling into sin.

Yes, let's put that passage in Hebrews in context. It most certainly does talk about falling from faith into unbelief.

Let's read another passage in Hebrews a little further along that makes it even more clear that it is talking about people who have accepted grace through faith and have fallen away:

[bible]Hebrews 6:4-8[/bible]

 

[stumpjumper]

God chooses, that's it. It's not a matter of luck. It's called unconditional election by His unconditional love.

To the glory of God,

Randy

Election is unconditional in that we do not have to do anything to be worthy of election. We simply have to accept election in faith. I have nothing against Reformed theology, I just don't believe it is correct and I have read the some Sproul and Pink.

If you want a middle ground try Barth. He was technically reformed but he would disagree on Limited atonement and had a slightly different view of grace. I'm not going to debate this anymore as I was just giving some scripture to show a middle ground...

 

[Perceivence]

I don't see why one can't feel secure in one's own salvation even if one believes that salvation may be lost. I imagine one can think that, though it may be lost under certain circumstances, one is neither currently in nor is likely to be in those circumstances (for whatever reason). It could be, for example, that one views the promises of being secure in God (like the ones Calvinists usually quote) as being applicable to oneself, and the ones about falling away as being warnings and otherwise not currently (and probably never will be) applicable to oneself.

I'm not sure how sound this position is. I only recently thought it.

 

[ETide]

Top 3 reasons why people do not understand security in CHRIST..

1. They think (or it has been taught) that it was ultimately their decision, or the decision of a priest, that made them a member of the body of Christ..or that they were baptized and told that they were born again..

People speak about converting to Christianity, or to such and such.. I converted to blank or blank.. etc..

It is ALMIGHTY GOD who sets members in the body of Christ as it pleases Himself.. He alone can judge the heart and He alone will purify your heart by faith..He alone can birth Christ in you..your hope of glory..and, if GOD seals you with the holy Spirit of promise.. then that is the earnest of your inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. God knows everything about you when HE seals you, and He knows your future..

2. People somehow believe that they need to maintain or sustain that which they could not earn in the first place.. SALVATION is a gift.. and if you're sealed with the holy Spirit of promise.. then you can do good works IN CHRIST.. simply because CHRIST IS IN YOU.. there is no good in the old man, for he is corrupt.. it's the NEW MAN in Christ who is created in righteousness and true holiness...

3. They don't understand that THEY ARE CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST.. they are DEAD, and their life is HID IN CHRIST with GOD.. when HE appears.. we SHALL appear with HIM..

This is our position in Christ.. practically it needs to be worked out with a reverent fear toward God.. for IT IS GOD WORKING IN US.. to DO His good pleasure..

 

[Harlan Norris]

Surely not, at best we are working on it and hoping for it.




Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Act 27:20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on [us], all hope that we should be saved was then taken away

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

2Cr 1:7 And our hope of you [is] stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so [shall ye be] also of the consolation.

Phl 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and [my] hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but [that] with all boldness, as always, [so] now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether [it be] by life, or by death.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

1Th 2:19 For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Tts 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hbr 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hbr 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Hbr 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Forgive me....

A list of worthy quotes.Certainly they should be considered.If any have left the world for the sake of Christ,they must be vigilant,or wander off the path.There are a million side trips available.Some are hard to resist.How far off the path can one go before they have left it entirely?Will they be abandoned in the wilderness?If anyone knows for shure let me know.

 

[ETide]

FAITH is the substance (or assurance) of things HOPED for, the evidence of things not seen..

IT (FAITH) embraces the promises of GOD..

These are exceeding great and precious promises..

These now abide.. FAITH, HOPE and LOVE.. and the greatest of these is HIS perfect LOVE..

 

[lionroar0]

FAITH is the substance (or assurance) of things HOPED for, the evidence of things not seen..

IT (FAITH) embraces the promises of GOD..

These are exceeding great and precious promises..

These now abide.. FAITH, HOPE and LOVE.. and the greatest of these is HIS perfect LOVE..

A relationship is not one way. It requires Faith, Hope and Love from both parties.

God's Faith, Hope and Love is perfect ours isn't.

Peace

 

[TruthMiner]

Our assurance is not a condition of staying united with Christ. Our assurance IS Christ himself. It is not a condition but a person. Since he is our assurance, and not a condition, we should remember his words:

"Remain in me."

He had a reason for teaching it.

 

[veraxacis]

We are very secure indeed...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Our assurance is not a condition of staying united with Christ. Our assurance IS Christ himself. It is not a condition but a person. Since he is our assurance, and not a condition, we should remember his words:

"Remain in me."

He had a reason for teaching it.

And what if you don't remain?

Forgive me.....