Fear of hell

[renew70]

No education? Where did you get that from? You better get out brain out of the 1960's. In case you didn't know, in our day and age there are many resources on the internet of scientific finding that you can find and read and watch to educate yourself. Information is not retrictred to a specific group. If you want to remain ignorant and believe what is the norm since you believe that only people with formal training can know certain things then go right ahead.

Education is not something you get only by sitting in a class!!

I agree. This is how I came to no longer accept the bible/christian worldview of creation, a flood or a literal bible, as far as the ot goes. Education and investigation opened my eyes to reality.

 

[renew70]

Perfect adherence to God's standard of righteousness, the 10 commandments. The term has no meaning without an objective standard and there is no objective standard outside that set by God.

How do you know god said that and not your church?

 

[renew70]

Are scientists infallible? Do they have perfect and irrefutable knowledge of all things? Would you say that none of the science is tainted by politics ( i.e. Global warming and evolution).

In most liberal government universities for a scientist to even suggest that evolution is flawed or that life could have come about from an intelligent creator he would be putting his job in jeopardy.

So people with no education, scientific backgrounds, training or serious study of scientific methodology know more than an entire body of peer-reviewed, professionally training, academic scientists? Seems legit.

 

[mathetes123]

How do you know god said that and not your church?

His inspired word, the Bible and the testimony of God in the flesh, Jesus Christ.

 

[renew70]

His inspired word, the Bible and the testimony of God in the flesh, Jesus Christ.

How do you know the bible was written by god himself?

 

[mathetes123]

How do you know the bible was written by god himself?

Fulfilled prophecy
The archeological record
The historical record
The witness of Other Christians whose lives were transformed
It best answers the basic questions in life

 

[renew70]

Fulfilled prophecy
The archeological record
The historical record
The witness of Other Christians whose lives were transformed
It best answers the basic questions in life

Such as (for fulfilled prophecy)? Jews don't accept Jesus as fulfilling anything.

The historical and archaeological records show the bible is false.

People from every faith and none at all have life changing experiences too.

How so?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

So people with no education, scientific backgrounds, training or serious study of scientific methodology know more than an entire body of peer-reviewed, professionally training, academic scientists? Seems legit.

So what about the many people with all of those things that also agree with what I said. This is your way of finding an way out since you cannot debunk or give an answer to anything that I have said. You just take it for granted that since I am a dunce, uneducated person nothing I say can be true.

Truth is not dependent on the presenter. The most intelligent person can be wrong and the least intelligent person can be right in a particular issue since truth is not dependent on the presenter.

So if I learn from a trained scientist and someone who had taught the theory of evolution for many years at a university level and was a zoologist for decades and conducted many experiments himself and did many presentation s all over the world, because I am not a scientist I am wrong, even if I repeat facts that he presented. See how narrow minded you are.

 

[renew70]

So what about the many people with all of those things that also agree with what I said. This is your way of finding an way out since you cannot debunk or give an answer to anything that I have said. You just take it for granted that since I am a dunce, uneducated person nothing I say can be true.

Truth is not dependent on the presenter. The most intelligent person can be wrong and the least intelligent person can be right in a particular issue since truth is not dependent on the presenter.

So if I learn from a trained scientist and someone who had taught the theory of evolution for many years at a university level and was a zoologist for decades and conducted many experiments himself and did many presentation s all over the world, because I am not a scientist I am wrong, even if I repeat facts that he presented. See how narrow minded you are.

No. But it does mean you lack knowledge about science and are not qualified to be talking about things you know little about, especially when you're coming up with fringe theories that contradict reality and what is actually true.

Unlike christians of course, who are never narrow-minded.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

No. But it does mean you lack knowledge about science and are not qualified to be talking about things you know little about, especially when you're coming up with fringe theories that contradict reality and what is actually true.

Unlike christians of course, who are never narrow-minded.

Since I lack knowledge and its not true then why don't you correct me. If you are not a scientist, then by your logic you are also not qualified to tell me i'm wrong.

 

[renew70]

Since I lack knowledge and its not true then why don't you correct me. If you are not a scientist, then by your logic you are also not qualified to tell me i'm wrong.

Why bother, it'll just get deleted since anytime you post anything that is not in line with fundamentalist christianity that is what happens. I can't be bothered.

Some people are a lost cause. This entire site is full of nothing but fundamentalists who reject everything except a literal bible. Anywhere but this forum or raptureready would be laughed at and ridiculed, but here, it's just everyday business.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Why bother, it'll just get deleted since anytime you post anything that is not in line with fundamentalist christianity that is what happens. I can't be bothered.

Some people are a lost cause. This entire site is full of nothing but fundamentalists who reject everything except a literal bible. Anywhere but this forum or raptureready would be laughed at and ridiculed, but here, it's just everyday business.

Well you are terrible mistaken. There are lots of places here for your to post that stuff and it wont get deleted. I guess you would just find every excuse you can since you have no answer to just the few points I brought up. Why don't you PM me then. And you would find a lot of supporters here too so none of your concerns are valid.

 

[renew70]

Well you are terrible mistaken. There are lots of places here for your to post that stuff and it wont get deleted. I guess you would just find every excuse you can since you have no answer to just the few points I brought up. Why don't you PM me then. And you would find a lot of supporters here too so none of your concerns are valid.

Supporters of what? Close-minded thinking, religious dogma and fundamentalists who are completely removed from real life? No thank you. It hurts my brain talking to people like that.

 

[mathetes123]

No. But it does mean you lack knowledge about science and are not qualified to be talking about things you know little about, especially when you're coming up with fringe theories that contradict reality and what is actually true.

Unlike christians of course, who are never narrow-minded.

It's when I see posts like this from people who claim to be knowledgeable about science who come into a Christian website to debate for evolution and against creationism that I am convinced it is more about the anti-Christian worldview then the science.

 

[Rattus58]

Supporters of what? Close-minded thinking, religious dogma and fundamentalists who are completely removed from real life? No thank you. It hurts my brain talking to people like that.

Hahaha.... you know, your descriptions of Christians and your tone are quite complementary... to each other.

 

[dhh712]

Aside from this very rational fear, is there any reason for anyone to actually want to become or remain a "christian?"

Fear of eternal torment at the hands of an angry deity is quite rational, even if there remains no evidence for such a place. Pascal said it best when he promoted his fire insurance evangelistic tactic. The trouble is, he didn't know there were actually other belief systems and faiths out there that contradicted his own, so his wager isn't as easy to take as one may think. It also lacks evidence. But self-preservation is a stronger need than morality, honor or dignity, so it is easier (and possibly saner) to take the blue pill and worship a being solely out of fear of eternal torture than it is to stand by your principles and risk offending the said capricious deity.

For me, the only reason for belief upon Christ is that He has established a relationship with that person first. Fear-based belief in my opinion can offer nothing of profit. To believe for that reason is to believe the lies of man, what they speak from the deceit of their heart.

I think you need to go to an average, evangelical church, sir. It is mentioned as much as the muslim's beloved quran mentions it. All the time.

The average, evangelical church has perverted the word of God, as God has said that it would; He states it over and over again in His letter to us. The problem is they use hell as a *threat* against people. In that, they do not recognize the Sovereignty of God and recognize themselves as the sovereignty.

 

[mathetes123]

For me, the only reason for belief upon Christ is that He has established a relationship with that person first. Fear-based belief in my opinion can offer nothing of profit. To believe for that reason is to believe the lies of man, what they speak from the deceit of their heart.



The average, evangelical church has perverted the word of God, as God has said that it would; He states it over and over again in His letter to us. The problem is they use hell as a *threat* against people. In that, they do not recognize the Sovereignty of God and recognize themselves as the sovereignty.

Jesus preached on hell several times. The perversion I see in the gospel message preached today is that it is not centered on the cross.

 

[dhh712]

Using fear and coercion is shameful and underhanded and only a fool would happily fall for such tactics and methods.

You are wise in the ways of the world to recognize this. I would not argue against it.

Only psychopaths need threats of hell to consider doing good. Ordinary, normal people would be horrified at such an idea.

Good according to society's standards. Only a psychopath would need threats of hell to act as such. The world has provided us many examples of humans furthering the betterment of other humans without possessing a relationship with the God of Scripture. Thus a good reason why humanity-centered Christianity holds no water; it is no better than the humanism philosophy which is widely prevalent today. I personally do not know why so many flock to such a thing (humanity-centered Christianity). I was exposed to it myself once and, unsurprisingly, fell away from it rather quickly. It is not a true faith given to one by God.

No education? Where did you get that from? You better get out brain out of the 1960's. In case you didn't know, in our day and age there are many resources on the internet of scientific finding that you can find and read and watch to educate yourself. Information is not retrictred to a specific group. If you want to remain ignorant and believe what is the norm since you believe that only people with formal training can know certain things then go right ahead.

Education is not something you get only by sitting in a class!!

I rather side with renew on this. I would feel very uncertain trusting someone who has learned what they know from the internet. I hold to the belief that book-education is only to be learned by attending a class held by trained professionals. There are other forms of education though, such as street education which can perhaps teach one something of common sense.

How do you know the bible was written by god himself?

None of us on here can convince you of that. Only the Holy Spirit can. I'm aware the answer would not be accepted by someone who does not yet have a relationship with God; yet it is not something I can be concerned with since there's nothing I can say which will convince you anyway.

No sir, it does not. The fossil records support an earth billions of years old, with simpler life forms on the lower levels and more complex ones near the top. There was no flood and there is no evidence for it either.

I am amazed that seemingly grown, and reasonably intelligent adults believe in a story like that.

You trust what the world tells you over what God tells you. Thus you pride yourself on your worldly knowledge.

Why bother, it'll just get deleted since anytime you post anything that is not in line with fundamentalist christianity that is what happens. I can't be bothered.

Some people are a lost cause. This entire site is full of nothing but fundamentalists who reject everything except a literal bible. Anywhere but this forum or raptureready would be laughed at and ridiculed, but here, it's just everyday business.

Well, that's where our trust lies (though I do not agree with you that every Christian on here is a fundamentalist). We are a lost cause to the cause of the world. It is not something which draws our fancy or which we are caught up in anymore. A good friend of mine once told me something which makes a lot of sense (biblical as well as worldly sense). He said, "I hope you find enough love in the world to not need religion" (he actually was told this from a friend of his own). That really is it--you are either fulfilled by the world or you are not.

I also am quite irked to see threads closed or deleted--to me it indicates a fear of what the world has to say about us, which we should be aware by what Scripture teaches that we will be mocked and ridiculed by the world. To me, it indicates that they still wish to have worldly dignity, which smacks to me of humanity-centered religion.

 

[dhh712]

The perversion I see in the gospel message preached today is that it is not centered on the cross.

I agree--it should be centered on God's love for us, the ultimate sacrifice which Christ paid to atone for our sins. There is nothing wrong with focusing on how sinful people are in the world today--perhaps it may convince them, by the work of the Holy Spirit, of their status as sinners in the sight of God. That, I feel, is the main difference (outside of the possession of faith from God) in the believer and non-believer.

To try to coerce people into believing in God based on fear of Him is not, from my understanding thus far, what He wishes of us. That sort of belief will not be founded upon anything either--He has to establish the relationship first. What is the point of trying to scare someone into believing in God if they haven't the means to believe upon Him anyway?? From the impression I get, it seems He would be very angry at this, for it does seem to twist His loving, personal relationship with us in to some form of demonic hatred of mankind.

There is nothing one can do to grab hold of God--He has to condescend to us and allow us to come into a relationship with Him. To throw out that God will torment people forever because they do not believe upon Him is not doing much to help people grab hold onto the gift God may be offering them. I would think it would rather turn people away from Him, if this is all they understand of Him.

 

[mathetes123]

I agree--it should be centered on God's love for us, the ultimate sacrifice which Christ paid to atone for our sins. There is nothing wrong with focusing on how sinful people are in the world today--perhaps it may convince them, by the work of the Holy Spirit, of their status as sinners in the sight of God. That, I feel, is the main difference (outside of the possession of faith from God) in the believer and non-believer.

To try to coerce people into believing in God based on fear of Him is not, from my understanding thus far, what He wishes of us. That sort of belief will not be founded upon anything either--He has to establish the relationship first. What is the point of trying to scare someone into believing in God if they haven't the means to believe upon Him anyway?? From the impression I get, it seems He would be very angry at this, for it does seem to twist His loving, personal relationship with us in to some form of demonic hatred of mankind.

There is nothing one can do to grab hold of God--He has to condescend to us and allow us to come into a relationship with Him. To throw out that God will torment people forever because they do not believe upon Him is not doing much to help people grab hold onto the gift God may be offering them. I would think it would rather turn people away from Him, if this is all they understand of Him.

I would consider it a warning of their impending sentence based on their current legal status (guilty) before a holy and just God unless they accept the pardon made available to them as a result of Jesus taking the penalty for their sins on the cross, demonstrating God's love for them and reconciling God' holy and just character with His mercy.