Fear and love

[JackofSpades]

I am ex-fundamentalist and used to believe bible is word of god. I still sometimes read it, tho now I see it with different eyes.

I've tried to understand what it excactly is that bible answers to question "what kind of relationship person should have with God".

I've come to this conclusion, as what grand point of bible is: It is story of deep fear and experience of great love. Not just one of them but both.

It is quite hard to put this expression in words, but bible is full of lines which greatly inspire fear, like "you do that and you go to eternal hell" or "whoever breaks the law, is going to die" and so on. Not really kind words of warning, but intimidating threats.

But on the other hand, God of bible is not just cruel tyran who enjoys scaring off people, in some twisted way he manages at same time to be good shepherd, loving father and so on. Even so much that many lines of bible are emotionally touching, not just nice ideas but really cool stuff.

This contrast of those two extremes makes me think that it could be at least possible that if bible indeed is message from god, it might be message from two gods, not one. One of them is kind and generous heavenly father, who looks after his children with sense of mercy, and the other one is angry and terrifying majesty.

And now both of these gods wanted to send a message and they somehow ended up on same book, outcome being like broken recording which plays two messages at same time.

This is what I honestly see now when I open bible. I see no way to merge those two divine beings into one (as is christian way) but I'm not excactly sure how I would explain two gods either, for example to seriously believe in multiple gods, I would need some sort of hierarchy for them etc.

Sorry for long post, not my style, but this one I simply couldn't keep short!

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi JoS, the "two" God approach obviously doesn't work since we are told in the Bible from cover to cover that both your "Happy/Loving" God, and your "Vengeful" God, are ONE, right .. Neither the human authors nor God Himself has a problem with the definition that God is one. For instance:

“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me. Isaiah 43:10

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. James 2:19​

Some like to say that the God of the OT is harsh in comparison with the God of the NT, but you probably know as well as I do that is hardly a consistent thing to say.

Perhaps the place to start is remembering that while God is love, He is also holy, righteous, just, etc. I think some mistakenly believe that His Holiness is an afterthought when compared to His love, but that is nothing more than a skewed and probably hopeful human way of trying to apprehend who He really is. We aren't holy and we aren't righteous, so those aspects of His character can be troubling to us, but He is those things as much as He is love.

St. Paul tells us in the "love" chapter of the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13:6, that while love is such a wonderful thing in so very many ways, nevertheless, "love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth". He is "love", but He is equally "Holy" (if one can even make such a comparison). And His attributes are not at war with one another, they are in harmony, and it is that aspect (the harmony of His attributes and character) that we must seek out if we are to even begin to see and to understand Him as He truly is.

As for those things which bring fear to our hearts and minds in the Bible, if God didn't tell us about them, could He in anyway be considered truly "loving" towards us ..

Yours and His,
David

 

[chapmic]

If you think of it as a parent it make sense. If the parent is too loving the child becomes spoiled and just does what ever he wants and thinks that the parent's job is to serve the child as an underling. If the parent is too strict, then the child will fear the parent but that will lead to resentment and because God gave us free will others will rebel while others may just crumble and sadness. The Bible is all about moderation not one extreme or the other extreme, God is perfect at balancing it.

 

[parsley]

but bible is full of lines which greatly inspire fear, like "you do that and you go to eternal hell" or "whoever breaks the law, is going to die" and so on. Not really kind words of warning, but intimidating threats.

I had a turning point in perception years ago, while I was trying to break away from cult tendencies in my church, which I felt immersed in.

God kept leading me to Isaiah and Jeremiah, which are full of reprimands and warnings. I'd already had an overload of those, so I'd shudder when I started to read them, and then close the book and say "Please God, understand why I can't read this."

I didn't grasp why God would make the experience worse, or add more confusion and guilt to the trauma. I kept praying, and asking for truth, but could barely read the Bible for a couple months.

I don't remember what triggered it, but suddenly I realized that God was defending the oppressed in those passages. I was oppressed, and I needed a strong arm of defense.

His love was shown through His protectiveness.

I opened the prophetic books again, and read that God was accusing the corrupt leaders, who led their sheep astray, and used them for personal gain. He saw the injustice going on in the church, and was not ignoring it, or supporting the claims of those misrepresenting God.

That was such an eye-opener. It transformed my view of God, led me deeper into books I'd ignored until then, and showed me how love is much more than being nice to someone. I needed a vigilant God, who would come to my defense, and not look aside when thousands were being wronged under unjust oppressors.

I would encourage you to think about why each statement was made, in the context of what was going on in those cities at the time.

Jeremiah 23:1Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of My pasture!" declares the LORD....
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch ; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land.



Is 56
Preserve justice and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come ...

His watchmen are blind, All of them know nothing. All of them are mute dogs unable to bark, Dreamers lying down, who love to slumber; 11And the dogs are greedy, they are not satisfied. And they are shepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way, Each one to his unjust gain, to the last one.



There, salvation was a rescue from oppressive leaders.

 

[JackofSpades]

...and showed me how love is much more than being nice to someone.

Yep, you got point. And thank you for sharing your story.

I understand there are arguments for having something else in supposedly divine book than pink teddybears, world is not excactly nice place and ignoring that completly can be also cruel. I have nothing against justice.

But God of bible (assuming now it's one person) goes great many steps further than being just and punishing justly. He is like parent telling kids to not eat too much candy or he will throw them out of house forever. In my opinion, that is not protective parent using just authority, it's cruel and intimidating.

 

[juvenissun]

I am ex-fundamentalist and used to believe bible is word of god. I still sometimes read it, tho now I see it with different eyes.

I've tried to understand what it excactly is that bible answers to question "what kind of relationship person should have with God".

I've come to this conclusion, as what grand point of bible is: It is story of deep fear and experience of great love. Not just one of them but both.

...

This is what I honestly see now when I open bible. I see no way to merge those two divine beings into one (as is christian way) but I'm not excactly sure how I would explain two gods either, for example to seriously believe in multiple gods, I would need some sort of hierarchy for them etc.

Sorry for long post, not my style, but this one I simply couldn't keep short!

Look at other religions. What are the relationships between people and their god? I would say it is much much more fear than love.

It is crazy to treat God as your "friend". Logically, it is not possible. However, the Christian God is exact in that nature.

The ultimate reason is: Human is a special creature of God. God creates us with a special purpose. That is why God treats us so specially. [think: God has angels before He creates human. Why would He bother to do that?]

 

[juvenissun]

Yep, you got point. And thank you for sharing your story.

I understand there are arguments for having something else in supposedly divine book than pink teddybears, world is not excactly nice place and ignoring that completly can be also cruel. I have nothing against justice.

But God of bible (assuming now it's one person) goes great many steps further than being just and punishing justly. He is like parent telling kids to not eat too much candy or he will throw them out of house forever. In my opinion, that is not protective parent using just authority, it's cruel and intimidating.

No no, you get story wrong. The correct version is this:

God tells a bunch of street children (not His children YET) not to eat too much candy. For those who listened, God takes them into His house and treats them as His children. For those who do not listen, God would leave them along.

See the difference? It can not be more fair than that.

 

[JackofSpades]

Hmm. I feel actually enlightened.

I never thought idea of god's assumed justness had to do with monotheism-polytheism but reading these answers makes it clear. To assume one god, there needs to be assumption that this god is just and good.

Now, for someone like me who has difficulties of putting those two things together without either one of them becoming dominant and consuming other, this creates natural tendency to explain other one away from picture. For me, most natural explanation is to assume there are more than one voice.

No no, you get story wrong.

Thank you for pointing it out, I actually agree that it is unlikely I understand Bible as it should be understood. If I did, I wouldn't be asking things.

 

[rick357]

Yep, you got point. And thank you for sharing your story.

I understand there are arguments for having something else in supposedly divine book than pink teddybears, world is not excactly nice place and ignoring that completly can be also cruel. I have nothing against justice.

But God of bible (assuming now it's one person) goes great many steps further than being just and punishing justly. He is like parent telling kids to not eat too much candy or he will throw them out of house forever. In my opinion, that is not protective parent using just authority, it's cruel and intimidating.

*[[Joh 3:17-18]] RNKJV*
%v 17% For יהוה sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
%v 18% He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of יהוה.

*[[Joh 12:46-48]] RNKJV*
%v 46% I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
%v 47% And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
%v 48% He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

To be one with God is life....to be a self is death

We are sinking in our sins....Jesus has offered to draw us out....if we refuse and sink it is not because he is angry at us

 

[toLiJC]

I am ex-fundamentalist and used to believe bible is word of god. I still sometimes read it, tho now I see it with different eyes.

I've tried to understand what it excactly is that bible answers to question "what kind of relationship person should have with God".

I've come to this conclusion, as what grand point of bible is: It is story of deep fear and experience of great love. Not just one of them but both.

It is quite hard to put this expression in words, but bible is full of lines which greatly inspire fear, like "you do that and you go to eternal hell" or "whoever breaks the law, is going to die" and so on. Not really kind words of warning, but intimidating threats.

But on the other hand, God of bible is not just cruel tyran who enjoys scaring off people, in some twisted way he manages at same time to be good shepherd, loving father and so on. Even so much that many lines of bible are emotionally touching, not just nice ideas but really cool stuff.

This contrast of those two extremes makes me think that it could be at least possible that if bible indeed is message from god, it might be message from two gods, not one. One of them is kind and generous heavenly father, who looks after his children with sense of mercy, and the other one is angry and terrifying majesty.

And now both of these gods wanted to send a message and they somehow ended up on same book, outcome being like broken recording which plays two messages at same time.

This is what I honestly see now when I open bible. I see no way to merge those two divine beings into one (as is christian way) but I'm not excactly sure how I would explain two gods either, for example to seriously believe in multiple gods, I would need some sort of hierarchy for them etc.

Sorry for long post, not my style, but this one I simply couldn't keep short!

the important is that the believer not be afraid of showing love for the neighbor(s)(cohabitant(s)), but it has the right to be afraid not to sin before the true Lord God

1 John 4:17-19 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment(i.e. that we continue to work on the overall salvation in the true Lord God even in most critical/perilous moments/circumstances): because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love(i.e. there is no fear in the love to do good thinks for the needy); but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment(i.e. because the result of the fear to work on the overall life's provision is a non-salvation and perdition). He that feareth(i.e. everyone who fears to do good to the needy) is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us."

Blessings

 

[Mediaeval]

God is not our enemy, even when we reject Him. He is selfless, loving, and forgiving as demonstrated by Jesus Christ on the cross. His judgments are the chastisements of a Father and are intended to help separate the sinner from his sin.

 

[JackofSpades]

God is not our enemy, even when we reject Him.

This is very comforting view, and in my opinion that is how merciful god would act. However, it's not biblical view.

 

[oi_antz]

This is very comforting view, and in my opinion that is how merciful god would act. However, it's not biblical view.

Enemy is someone who acts against another. Being an enemy does not necessarily make an enemy in return.

 

[Mediaeval]

This is very comforting view, and in my opinion that is how merciful god would act. However, it's not biblical view.

Brother Jack, the proof of God's merciful, self-sacrificing character is found especially in Jesus Christ. If you have seen Him, you have seen the Father. God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.