Faulty Thinking?

[Byfaithalone1]

What you forgot about is the culture. If you lived in a Judaizer culture and you were fighting the idea that obedience gives you salvation it makes sense to make comments like you did. They stress the reality that you are not going to earn salvation.

It is good to point out that we don't earn our own salvation. It is good to note who we are in relation to God. It is good to understand that, not only is it possible to have a relationship with God, He genuinely desires it. It is good to note that we are loved, cherished and valued by our Creator.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

What you forgot about is the culture. If you lived in a Judaizer culture and you were fighting the idea that obedience gives you salvation it makes sense to make comments like you did. They stress the reality that you are not going to earn salvation.

true enough.... it is unfortunate that the culture or mindset which would make those statements "necessary" continues to thrive....

 

[Joe67]

A time to rejoice.

Rev 4:9-11
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. KJV

A time to weep.

Rev 5:1-4
:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. KJV

A time to rejoice again.

Rev 5:5-10
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. KJV

Joe

 

[1Prophetess]

As I read your post, the unrelated thought struck me that it isn't always easy to see the line that exists between healthy self esteem and false pride.

BFA

That's funny that you would say this. I talk to my sons about this all the time.

Nathan (my blessing child) came home and told me that a friend was bragging about the way he could play football. I said, "Well, is it true?" He said, "I don't know, probably not." I replied. "If he can do it, then he is just stating the truth. But if he can't he's being arrogant."

And in a way, false pride would be a part of humbling yourself on the ground just to show others you're humble. When you're not really humble, then false pride would want you to "pretend" you're humble by acting it. If you're not acting, then you are really humble.

 

[StormyOne]

That's funny that you would say this. I talk to my sons about this all the time.

Nathan (my blessing child) came home and told me that a friend was bragging about the way he could play football. I said, "Well, is it true?" He said, "I don't know, probably not." I replied. "If he can do it, then he is just stating the truth. But if he can't he's being arrogant."

And in a way, false pride would be a part of humbling yourself on the ground just to show others you're humble. When you're not really humble, then false pride would want you to "pretend" you're humble by acting it. If you're not acting, then you are really humble.

well said....

 

[AzA]

As I read your post, the unrelated thought struck me that it isn't always easy to see the line that exists between healthy self esteem and false pride.

I also think this was a good point, and related as 1Prophetess explained.

I look at Philippians 2 and see humility as rooted in awareness of self. Seems to me that it's not just about relative status; it's also about range of movement.

Take the disciples in the Upper Room that last Thursday night. None of them felt able to "sink" to the floor and wash feet, performing the role of servants if only for a few minutes. Only one of the men in the room was able to do it because he was aware of who he was. No one can rob you of what you are. They can steal what you possess -- but they can't steal your substance.

So the argument seems to go that because of his secure identity, Jesus was able to move from heaven to earth, from God's throne to a shaming cross and then lower still to a grave... and he was/is also able to take the return trip, from curse to king and from earth to heaven.

In my life, this kind of awareness might mean that I do not require peer recognition or affirmation because I know who I am. Nor am I in competition with anyone, least of all my Creator. I do expect my Creator to be more than me. Anything else would be a bit weird, no? Yet if I'm not in competition with God, I won't feel the deficiency that comes from not being (as much as) God, and knowing that I am not (as much as) God. Hard to compare race times to someone who started the race at the end of it.

That's the negative rendering. The positive rendering is that I believe God sees us as His own. That brings security too. Not stagnancy, but security.

 

[Joe67]

John 5:17-19
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. KJV

John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. KJV

Herein is true humility and true confidence. This is our life.

Joe

 

[AzA]

Joe -- absolutely.

Thanks for these complementary references.

 

[Joe67]

AzA,

When God puts us at the top of the little pecking order that surrounds our life's duties/activities, this position of humility, that led Jesus to be crucified for us, becomes more contemptible in our sight.

The forgiveness of God came to me, at the age of 22, for my youthful sins. I felt I would never forget the tender mercy of God to me. At the age of 40 and at the top of the little pecking order wherein God had placed me, pride filled my bosom and one day, out of my mouth came almost the identical words that Nebuchadnezzar said as he walking about in his palace. "Is this not great .... that I have built." And just like Neb, God began tearing me down, and brought me to where I felt that I was just like an animal.

Joe

 

[AzA]

Nice when things are back in order, isn't it?

 

[StormyOne]

In light of k4c's comment in another thread i.e. "It amazes me how God can love sinful man," I thought this thread bears revisiting... How could God not love humans whom he created? Again I believe those kinds of statements come from a negative image mindset...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

In light of k4c's comment in another thread i.e. "It amazes me how God can love sinful man," I thought this thread bears revisiting... How could God not love humans whom he created? Again I believe those kinds of statements come from a negative image mindset...

Perhaps they also portray something about how each of us individually views the relationship between God and human.

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

"I don't deserve this, you've been too good to me," "I am unworthy," "I am wretched," "I am no good," "why do you bless me so?"

Isn't this what the prodigal son said to his father? And why would we think that all Christians speak this way? If we come across Christians who speak this way, it is probably because they have become aware of their lost condition and are on their way back to God.

If our children constantly stated those things to us, we would seek counseling for them... so why is it okay for those who call themselves "Children of God" to constantly say such things? Perhaps counseling is needed?

Do all children of God speak like this? I don't think so.

Maybe the ones who utter such despairing words as quoted above, are speaking from the viewpoint of the prodigal son -- who, I feel sure, was in a much better position than the son who stayed at home and saw himself as "good" and who felt no need to beat upon his chest as his prodigal brother did. One would hope that the son who stayed at home would become aware of his self-righteous attitude towards his returning brother, and he would then maybe say those same wrenching words that would take him back to a genuine relationship with his father.

"As a person thinks in their mind, so are they......"


thoughts?

There is hope for the one who feels unworthy, wretched, and no good, "blessed are the poor in spirit," for then they will turn to God. There is small hope for the self righteous who feel that their self righteousness is all that they need.

But putting prodigality aside, I agree with you that children of God should be healthy in mind and body, balanced, warm and accepting of themselves and others, rejoicing and growing in their relationship with God.

 

[StormyOne]

Isn't this what the prodigal son said to his father? And why would we think that all Christians speak this way? If we come across Christians who speak this way, it is probably because they have become aware of their lost condition and are on their way back to God.



Do all children of God speak like this? I don't think so.

Maybe the ones who utter such despairing words as quoted above, are speaking from the viewpoint of the prodigal son -- who, I feel sure, was in a much better position than the son who stayed at home and saw himself as "good" and who felt no need to beat upon his chest as his prodigal brother did. One would hope that the son who stayed at home would become aware of his self-righteous attitude towards his returning brother, and he would then maybe say those same wrenching words that would take him back to a genuine relationship with his father.



There is hope for the one who feels unworthy, wretched, and no good, "blessed are the poor in spirit," for then they will turn to God. There is small hope for the self righteous who feel that their self righteousness is all that they need.

But putting prodigality aside, I agree with you that children of God should be healthy in mind and body, balanced, warm and accepting of themselves and others, rejoicing and growing in their relationship with God.

I am not certain that the definition of "poor in spirit" means self-loathing... My point is how can a child of God harbor such negative thoughts about themselves given that they are a child of God....

The prodigal son is a different issue, he knew he messed up and because he messed up felt like his father would accept him as a servant... BUT remember the father's response, he welcomed his son, not a servant... so the reality is we may think of ourselves as wretched, but God sees us as his kids... we need to remember that....

 

[map4]

"I don't deserve this, you've been too good to me," "I am unworthy," "I am wretched," "I am no good," "why do you bless me so?"

If our children constantly stated those things to us, we would seek counseling for them... so why is it okay for those who call themselves "Children of God" to constantly say such things? Perhaps counseling is needed?


"As a person thinks in their mind, so are they......"


thoughts?

I am not certain that the definition of "poor in spirit" means self-loathing... My point is how can a child of God harbor such negative thoughts about themselves given that they are a child of God....

The prodigal son is a different issue, he knew he messed up and because he messed up felt like his father would accept him as a servant... BUT remember the father's response, he welcomed his son, not a servant... so the reality is we may think of ourselves as wretched, but God sees us as his kids... we need to remember that....

Yes!! I absolutely agree!

Jesus paid dearly to reconcile us to God. He took our sin, was made sin so that we could be made the righteous of God in Christ Jesus.
That is not something to be taken lightly. What are we saying about the sacrifice of Jesus and what that accomplished when we talk about how unworthy we are. Yes, without Christ we are unworthy. But, because of Christ, we are worthy, in Him. We mattered enough that He gave His life for us.
When we talk about what unworthy sinners we are, we are still looking at ourselves. We are new creatures in Christ. We are no longer an unworthy sinner. We are to put on Jesus, and that's how God sees us, there is nothing unworthy there.
It's a matter of perspective. See yourself as God sees you. Someone He created and loved enough to send His only Son to die for.
The bible says we shouldn't think of ourselves more highly than we ought. That tells me that we shouldn't think of ourselves as lowly sinners. Just don't get prideful. Stay humble. Saying you are a child of God, that you are worthy because of that, is not being arrogant. It is a humbling thing when you really understand what that means. But you know who you are. That is the key. Identify yourself with Jesus.

 

[Laodicean]

Yes!! I absolutely agree!

Jesus paid dearly to reconcile us to God. He took our sin, was made sin so that we could be made the righteous of God in Christ Jesus.
That is not something to be taken lightly. What are we saying about the sacrifice of Jesus and what that accomplished when we talk about how unworthy we are. Yes, without Christ we are unworthy. But, because of Christ, we are worthy, in Him. We mattered enough that He gave His life for us.
When we talk about what unworthy sinners we are, we are still looking at ourselves. We are new creatures in Christ. We are no longer an unworthy sinner. We are to put on Jesus, and that's how God sees us, there is nothing unworthy there.
It's a matter of perspective. See yourself as God sees you. Someone He created and loved enough to send His only Son to die for.
The bible says we shouldn't think of ourselves more highly than we ought. That tells me that we shouldn't think of ourselves as lowly sinners. Just don't get prideful. Stay humble. Saying you are a child of God, that you are worthy because of that, is not being arrogant. It is a humbling thing when you really understand what that means. But you know who you are. That is the key. Identify yourself with Jesus.

Lovely. I agree.

 

[Laodicean]

I am not certain that the definition of "poor in spirit" means self-loathing... My point is how can a child of God harbor such negative thoughts about themselves given that they are a child of God....

and my point was only that those Christians that you hear saying "I am unworthy" may be Christians who have come to realize that they have been prodigal and are on their way back, beating up on themselves for what they have done. Nothing wrong with that in its time and place.

The prodigal son is a different issue, he knew he messed up and because he messed up felt like his father would accept him as a servant... BUT remember the father's response, he welcomed his son, not a servant... so the reality is we may think of ourselves as wretched, but God sees us as his kids... we need to remember that....

Right. I had thought, though, that the discussion was about the children, not the Father. We know the Father will always welcome us back with open arms.

Elsewhere, I remember that you had said that what if Satan is the ultimate prodigal. I'm betting that if Satan wanted to return to God in genuine repentance, he would be accepted. The problem is that he has taken a committed stand against God and refuses to return. What is a father supposed to do then? Force him to return?

 

[StormyOne]

and my point was only that those Christians that you hear saying "I am unworthy" may be Christians who have come to realize that they have been prodigal and are on their way back, beating up on themselves for what they have done. Nothing wrong with that in its time and place.



Right. I had thought, though, that the discussion was about the children, not the Father. We know the Father will always welcome us back with open arms.

Elsewhere, I remember that you had said that what if Satan is the ultimate prodigal. I'm betting that if Satan wanted to return to God in genuine repentance, he would be accepted. The problem is that he has taken a committed stand against God and refuses to return. What is a father supposed to do then? Force him to return?

You don't know that he has, unless you've spoken to him. You don't even know if he is alive... Having said that, if God knows that in 100,000 years Lucifer will return, do you think he will wait?

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Elsewhere, I remember that you had said that what if Satan is the ultimate prodigal. I'm betting that if Satan wanted to return to God in genuine repentance, he would be accepted. The problem is that he has taken a committed stand against God and refuses to return. What is a father supposed to do then? Force him to return?
​

You don't know that he has, unless you've spoken to him. You don't even know if he is alive... Having said that, if God knows that in 100,000 years Lucifer will return, do you think he will wait?

Well, now, you see, since my authority is the Bible, I can say that I know that Satan has taken a committed stand against God, and that his end has been described as in the lake of fire, not repentance 100,000 years later. What is the source for your belief...or should I say, speculation?

 

[StormyOne]

You don't know.... you believe that what is written in the bible is true and set in stone.... you don't know if something has changed from the time those words in the bible were written and now... As long as theirvis life there is hope... remember the lesson of the story of Jonah....