Well, I will do something a little different from the way I normally do things.
This thread, I will refute the doctrine that claims that God "controls everything" like a puppet master, and we are all automatons. They say that God causes sin "for his own glory", they say that God chose who would believe and who would not believe, that God chose who would go to heaven and who would go to hell before the world began, this based primarily on one passage by Paul, but loosely supported by other passage, as they see it.
But I will show that we are not automatons, and that human beings have free will.
I will show that not only does God not "cause" sin, nor unbelief, nor did he pick every believer or every unbeliever there ever would be before the world was even created.
I will show that in fact, if God did control everything in this manner, then he would be the biggest liar ever.
I will show that God does not predestinate people's choices or beliefs, but rather he predestinates that IF a person chooses "X", then "R" will be the result. If a person chooses "Y", then "Z" will be the result. He does not choose the "X" or the "Y" for the person, not at all.
For you fatalists, I'll present your own evidences, lest you find occasion to blame me, though you are free to mention anything I forget or overlook.
The fatalists strongest peice of evidence, as they see it, is this quote from Paul, along with some following texts.
Romans 9:16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Now I know fatalists think this means that God picked every sinner before the world was made, and also picked every believer from before the world was made, and so then everything was already predetermined, and I'm just a sock puppet going to heaven because God made me that way, though I don't know I'm a sock puppet, they say.
God just made pharaoh more and more evil, for no reason other than "for his glory", they say. Look at that, God controlled him like a sock puppet and hardened his heart, made him so evil just so he could kill him for being evil and get a thrill out of it.
Joe Schmoe unbeliever was made for the sole purpose of being roasted alive in the lake of fire forever, they say, and that God somehow has pleasure in this, they say.
But no, that is not true, when you study the rest of the Bible other than these few quote mines, you then begin to see a context wherein these passages are to be understood.
The Bible says that all things were made for the Lord's pleasure (rev. 4:11).
Yet God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Now get that, readers. All things are made for the Lord's pleasure, yet he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Automaticly, this begins to tell us that God does NOT want anyone to die lost, not even one person.
Either Ezekiel is a liar, or the fatalists are mistaken.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God doesn't want anyone to go to the lake of fire. God wants everyone to repent.
Doesn't look like God causes sin or unbelief or unrepentance to me, if he did, he'd be insane and a liar.
So either Peter is a liar, or the fatalists are mistaken in their interpretation of scriptures.
The fatalist claims that God controls everything, and that everything is pre-ordained and predestined and pre-determined and pre-controlled by God. But if that is the case, then our brother James was a liar, since James tells us that God does not tempt men with evil.
James 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
If God controls everything and predestinates everything, then God would have to control the tempter also, and ultimately that would make God the tempter, if so be that God controls everything. After all, if God controls everything, then how did Satan fall in the first place, except God caused it...
But James says, no, God does not tempt anyone.
Now if God does not tempt anyone, then God cannot possibly be predestinating everything on an individual basis, else either God or James would have to be a liar.
Either James is a liar, or fatalists are mistaken in their interpretation of scriptures.
We see here why it is such an abomination to claim that God "forced" or "pre-ordained" pharaoh to be evil, and that further, he caused him to become more and more evil. That simply is not the case, James said God does not tempt any man, nor can he.
"God is light and in him is no darkness at all."(1 John 1:5)
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
More proof that God does not "Control" everything, not by any means.
If there is even one thing that God's word says he does not cause, then we have direct proof that fatalism is a false doctrine. Well, here is a specific quote.
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
It could also have been translated, "God is not of confusion" or "God is not confusion."
In any case, it bears the meaning that God in fact does not cause confusion. If a person is confused, it is their own fault or the fault of whoever taught them a wrong thing, but it is not God's fault, because God did not cause it.
If God is not the author of confusion, then predestination is a false doctrine. After all, predestination claims God made every person they way they are, they're a "vessel of wrath" or in some sort of transition stage "ordained by God", according to the fatalists. Yet they say its the person's fault.
No, God is not the author of confusion.
God has never wanted the first sin. God has never caused even one sin. God takes no please in sin, nor does he take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Yet he made all things for the PURPOSE of pleasing him. It is not his fault some of those things CHOSE not to do what they were created to do, which was to worship God.
Man is created in the image and likness of God, and as such, man has free choice and teh sole responsibility for his actions.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Man is created like God in every way except man is finite whereas God is infinite. Man is mortal, where as God is eternal.
=======
So the reader says, "What about all those verses that say 'predestinate' and 'ordain' and so on?"
Well, God does predestinate LAWS and CONSEQUENCES. He does not predestinate who chooses to obey those laws. To do so would be a clear violation of his own word, most notably in Ezekiel and in James' writings.
So how do we interpret romans 9 then, you might ask?
It is very simple. Pharaoh chose to harden his heart, and God allowed him to harden his heart. It's that simple.
This is similar to the passage here.
1 Samuel 16:14But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
The phrase "Evil Spirit from the Lord" does not mean that God "caused" or "predestinated" or "pre-ordained" or even "ordered" an evil spirit to attack Saul. It just means that the Lord allowed it to happen, which is the same thing we see in the case of Satan tempting Job. God did not "cause" satan to tempt Job, he allowed it to happen. Any other interpretation has God "tempting man with evil" and we know from James that God does not do that.
So to recap.
God does not lie.
God created all things for his pleasure. (the purpose of creation.)
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
God wants everyone to repent and get saved, they simply choose not to.
God does not tempt man, and consequently we gather from this that God therefore does not "Control" everything.
It is "predestinated" that everyone who does not believe the Gospel wil become a "vessel of wrath", but God does not make this choice for them, else he would violate his own words through other writers.
It is predestinated that everyone who repents and recieves Jesus Christ as Lord and savior will then become a "vessel of mercy".
The idea that in eternity past, God looked at Joe Schmoe, and said, "Poor fella, I'm going to make you into an unrepentant sinner and send you to the lake of fire forever. There you will burn for ever and ever and ever for all eternity until the end of time." Well, it Is a hideous lie which is easily refuted by James, Peter, and Ezekiel.
If so be that Joe Schmoe dies lost and goes to the lake of fire, it is by his own choice, and God did not force him to do so, nor did God cause any of his sins along the way, as God does not tempt man, nor did God cause any of the sins of anyone who did tempt him, including the devil, as that is just a matter of regression leading back to God anyway.
Satan had free choice and chose to rebel against God, the Lord having nothing to do with that choice; neither causing it nor desiring it.
Adam and Eve had free choice, and chose to rebel against God, the Lord having nothing to do with that choice; neither causing it nor desiring it.
This thread, I will refute the doctrine that claims that God "controls everything" like a puppet master, and we are all automatons. They say that God causes sin "for his own glory", they say that God chose who would believe and who would not believe, that God chose who would go to heaven and who would go to hell before the world began, this based primarily on one passage by Paul, but loosely supported by other passage, as they see it.
But I will show that we are not automatons, and that human beings have free will.
I will show that not only does God not "cause" sin, nor unbelief, nor did he pick every believer or every unbeliever there ever would be before the world was even created.
I will show that in fact, if God did control everything in this manner, then he would be the biggest liar ever.
I will show that God does not predestinate people's choices or beliefs, but rather he predestinates that IF a person chooses "X", then "R" will be the result. If a person chooses "Y", then "Z" will be the result. He does not choose the "X" or the "Y" for the person, not at all.
For you fatalists, I'll present your own evidences, lest you find occasion to blame me, though you are free to mention anything I forget or overlook.
The fatalists strongest peice of evidence, as they see it, is this quote from Paul, along with some following texts.
Romans 9:16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Now I know fatalists think this means that God picked every sinner before the world was made, and also picked every believer from before the world was made, and so then everything was already predetermined, and I'm just a sock puppet going to heaven because God made me that way, though I don't know I'm a sock puppet, they say.
God just made pharaoh more and more evil, for no reason other than "for his glory", they say. Look at that, God controlled him like a sock puppet and hardened his heart, made him so evil just so he could kill him for being evil and get a thrill out of it.
Joe Schmoe unbeliever was made for the sole purpose of being roasted alive in the lake of fire forever, they say, and that God somehow has pleasure in this, they say.
But no, that is not true, when you study the rest of the Bible other than these few quote mines, you then begin to see a context wherein these passages are to be understood.
The Bible says that all things were made for the Lord's pleasure (rev. 4:11).
Yet God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Now get that, readers. All things are made for the Lord's pleasure, yet he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Automaticly, this begins to tell us that God does NOT want anyone to die lost, not even one person.
Either Ezekiel is a liar, or the fatalists are mistaken.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God doesn't want anyone to go to the lake of fire. God wants everyone to repent.
Doesn't look like God causes sin or unbelief or unrepentance to me, if he did, he'd be insane and a liar.
So either Peter is a liar, or the fatalists are mistaken in their interpretation of scriptures.
The fatalist claims that God controls everything, and that everything is pre-ordained and predestined and pre-determined and pre-controlled by God. But if that is the case, then our brother James was a liar, since James tells us that God does not tempt men with evil.
James 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
If God controls everything and predestinates everything, then God would have to control the tempter also, and ultimately that would make God the tempter, if so be that God controls everything. After all, if God controls everything, then how did Satan fall in the first place, except God caused it...
But James says, no, God does not tempt anyone.
Now if God does not tempt anyone, then God cannot possibly be predestinating everything on an individual basis, else either God or James would have to be a liar.
Either James is a liar, or fatalists are mistaken in their interpretation of scriptures.
We see here why it is such an abomination to claim that God "forced" or "pre-ordained" pharaoh to be evil, and that further, he caused him to become more and more evil. That simply is not the case, James said God does not tempt any man, nor can he.
"God is light and in him is no darkness at all."(1 John 1:5)
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
More proof that God does not "Control" everything, not by any means.
If there is even one thing that God's word says he does not cause, then we have direct proof that fatalism is a false doctrine. Well, here is a specific quote.
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
It could also have been translated, "God is not of confusion" or "God is not confusion."
In any case, it bears the meaning that God in fact does not cause confusion. If a person is confused, it is their own fault or the fault of whoever taught them a wrong thing, but it is not God's fault, because God did not cause it.
If God is not the author of confusion, then predestination is a false doctrine. After all, predestination claims God made every person they way they are, they're a "vessel of wrath" or in some sort of transition stage "ordained by God", according to the fatalists. Yet they say its the person's fault.
No, God is not the author of confusion.
God has never wanted the first sin. God has never caused even one sin. God takes no please in sin, nor does he take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Yet he made all things for the PURPOSE of pleasing him. It is not his fault some of those things CHOSE not to do what they were created to do, which was to worship God.
Man is created in the image and likness of God, and as such, man has free choice and teh sole responsibility for his actions.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Man is created like God in every way except man is finite whereas God is infinite. Man is mortal, where as God is eternal.
=======
So the reader says, "What about all those verses that say 'predestinate' and 'ordain' and so on?"
Well, God does predestinate LAWS and CONSEQUENCES. He does not predestinate who chooses to obey those laws. To do so would be a clear violation of his own word, most notably in Ezekiel and in James' writings.
So how do we interpret romans 9 then, you might ask?
It is very simple. Pharaoh chose to harden his heart, and God allowed him to harden his heart. It's that simple.
This is similar to the passage here.
1 Samuel 16:14But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
The phrase "Evil Spirit from the Lord" does not mean that God "caused" or "predestinated" or "pre-ordained" or even "ordered" an evil spirit to attack Saul. It just means that the Lord allowed it to happen, which is the same thing we see in the case of Satan tempting Job. God did not "cause" satan to tempt Job, he allowed it to happen. Any other interpretation has God "tempting man with evil" and we know from James that God does not do that.
So to recap.
God does not lie.
God created all things for his pleasure. (the purpose of creation.)
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
God wants everyone to repent and get saved, they simply choose not to.
God does not tempt man, and consequently we gather from this that God therefore does not "Control" everything.
It is "predestinated" that everyone who does not believe the Gospel wil become a "vessel of wrath", but God does not make this choice for them, else he would violate his own words through other writers.
It is predestinated that everyone who repents and recieves Jesus Christ as Lord and savior will then become a "vessel of mercy".
The idea that in eternity past, God looked at Joe Schmoe, and said, "Poor fella, I'm going to make you into an unrepentant sinner and send you to the lake of fire forever. There you will burn for ever and ever and ever for all eternity until the end of time." Well, it Is a hideous lie which is easily refuted by James, Peter, and Ezekiel.
If so be that Joe Schmoe dies lost and goes to the lake of fire, it is by his own choice, and God did not force him to do so, nor did God cause any of his sins along the way, as God does not tempt man, nor did God cause any of the sins of anyone who did tempt him, including the devil, as that is just a matter of regression leading back to God anyway.
Satan had free choice and chose to rebel against God, the Lord having nothing to do with that choice; neither causing it nor desiring it.
Adam and Eve had free choice, and chose to rebel against God, the Lord having nothing to do with that choice; neither causing it nor desiring it.
