Status
Not open for further replies.

Jesus My Wisdom

Active Member
Mar 28, 2004
395
6
✟569.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Calvinists say their doctrine is not fatalism which is by definition the philosophical doctrine that:

all events are predetermined in advance to happen and human beings cannot therefore change their destinies

even though they themselves believe that :

all events are predetermined in advance to happen and human beings cannot therefore change their destinies.

This is also indicated in Chapter III of the Westminster Confession, "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass."
 

nobdysfool

The original! Accept no substitutes!
Feb 23, 2003
15,018
1,006
Home, except when I'm not....
✟21,146.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Jesus My Wisdom said:
Calvinists say their doctrine is not fatalism which is by definition the philosophical doctrine that:

all events are predetermined in advance to happen and human beings cannot therefore change their destinies

even though they themselves believe that :

all events are predetermined in advance to happen and human beings cannot therefore change their destinies.

This is also indicated in Chapter III of the Westminster Confession, "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass."
Your problem is not with Calvinism, but God. The Westminster Confession is what the bible teaches. Man is a creature trapped in time, moving forward in time with only minimal knowledge of the future, which he must deduce from the present. God suffers from no such limitation. A friend of mine put it this way:

God, being perfectly Omniscient and Omnipotent, in considering all of the possible worlds He could create, and knowing in exacting detail the actions of each and every inhabitant of those worlds should He create any one of them, chose to create this world, and in so doing, predestined by its very creation, every event and action in this world, simply by the creation of it. It took no extra decree or thought on His part to predestine any part of it, because it was known in exacting detail in the Mind of God before He even said the words, "Let there be Light".

The events, actions, and even the people who have existed, do exist, or will exist, were all known by God, and their actions, thoughts, and decisions were known by Him before He created anything. He chose this world as the best of all possible worlds, as He said at the beginning, that it was good, and if God days something is good, it is good indeed.

Now along come the semi-pelagians and Arminians, who claim that man messed up God's Plan, and He's been in "damage-control" ever since, and that's why He had to send His Son, Jesus, to die for the whole world's sins and get everything back on track, which He must depend on the free will choices of men to do. Jesus, according to them, died specifically for every man, woman, and child, and all they have to do is decide of their own free will to come to Him. They are saddened by the fact that not all do so, and they don't seem to see any problem with God's Will not being always accomplished, even though they will affirm that it's God's will to save every man, and that is what he purposed to do, but man doesn't always choose to do God's Will. What they fail to see is that the logical end of their doctrine is that the Atonement was, in part, a failure on Christ's part, because it didn't accomplish all it was meant and purposed to do, in direct contravention of scripture, which says:

(Isa 55:11)
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

If it's God's will that ALL men be saved, but obviously not all men are saved, then God's Will is not being accomplished. But this passage of scripture says otherwise. Therefore, a problem arises. Since God's will is basic, and He says the word that goes forth from His mouth shall accomplish that which he pleases, then God cannot be the one failing, so it must be something else. Men fail God every day, and men have a Righteous Judgment awaiting them for those failures (called sin). If God chooses to save SOME men, because it pleases Him, Then God's Will is being accomplished 100% of the time, for both the saved and unsaved. For the saved because He chose them, and for the unsaved, not because He didn't choose them, but because His Will is also a part of His Justice and Judgment, and the unchosen are rightly judged for their sin, that Judgment also being God's Will. Hence, God's will is always accomplished.

Given the choice between a God Who is in absolute and minute control, or a frustrated God in damage control mode because of man's failure to avoid sin, I'll take the God who is in absilute control every time.

Fatalism? Nope! An assurance that all is as God Wills, and nothing can happen to me that God has not ordained, nor can I fall from His Hand if I am one of His. Fatalism is distasteful to those who think that they can run their lives better than (or at least as well as) God, and only need his "help" every once in a while.



 
Upvote 0

de Unamuno

Active Member
Jan 8, 2004
222
39
47
Denver, Colorado
✟15,602.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Republican
nobdysfool said:
Your problem is not with Calvinism, but God. The Westminster Confession is what the bible teaches.

Actually, it is what men say the Bible teaches. Big difference.

Man is a creature trapped in time, moving forward in time with only minimal knowledge of the future, which he must deduce from the present. God suffers from no such limitation. A friend of mine put it this way:

God, being perfectly Omniscient and Omnipotent, in considering all of the possible worlds He could create, and knowing in exacting detail the actions of each and every inhabitant of those worlds should He create any one of them, chose to create this world, and in so doing, predestined by its very creation, every event and action in this world, simply by the creation of it. It took no extra decree or thought on His part to predestine any part of it, because it was known in exacting detail in the Mind of God before He even said the words, "Let there be Light".

This is all very correct, in my humble assessment. Good use of terminology, too: predistined is right... predetermined would be incorrect.

The events, actions, and even the people who have existed, do exist, or will exist, were all known by God, and their actions, thoughts, and decisions were known by Him before He created anything. He chose this world as the best of all possible worlds, as He said at the beginning, that it was good, and if God days something is good, it is good indeed.

Is your friend Catholic by any chance? So far, you are describing Catholic Predestination, not TULIP Predetermination. Predest incorporates man's decisions (free will).

Given the choice between a God Who is in absolute and minute control, or a frustrated God in damage control mode because of man's failure to avoid sin, I'll take the God who is in absilute control every time.

Where does scripture say God is frustrated with men's decisions? I could just as easily say God already knows our decisions and is willing to work them into the plan. And damage control? If God is outside of time, and he made a plan from end-to-end that takes into account all human decisions (free will), why are you putting him a "catch up" position of damage control? If, before the act of creating the world, he saw ahead that the plan wouldn't end the way he wanted it to, he wouldn't have created the world in the first place. Instead, he saw the world unfold (outside of time), saw that some of us would choose him and some wouldn't, and that, in the end, he will have maximized the number of people who would freely choose him. It's all good, so let's make a world!

Fatalism? Nope! An assurance that all is as God Wills, and nothing can happen to me that God has not ordained, nor can I fall from His Hand if I am one of His.

Yet, you could renounce God in a few years and find out you were never saved to begin with. How is that reassuring to you now?

Fatalism is distasteful to those who think that they can run their lives better than (or at least as well as) God, and only need his "help" every once in a while.

I think it better that people learn to choose to submit their wills to God, because, you're right, he can run our lives better than we can. But, of course, he needs that true gift of self, first, and he respects our dignity enough to allow us that freedom.

Peace be with you,
 
Upvote 0

theseed

Contributor
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
6,026
132
Clarksville, TN
Visit site
✟30,488.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If God is all knowing and all powerful, then he allows all things to happen, and knows what will happen--God is Sovereign.

If things don't happen the way God wants them too, then he is powerless, and not Soveriegn, he is not in control.

But here is the real answer to the question, no body knows what God has planned, but many know that he does have a plan.
 
Upvote 0

de Unamuno

Active Member
Jan 8, 2004
222
39
47
Denver, Colorado
✟15,602.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Republican
theseed said:
If God is all knowing and all powerful, then he allows all things to happen, and knows what will happen--God is Sovereign.

If things don't happen the way God wants them too, then he is powerless, and not Soveriegn, he is not in control.

But here is the real answer to the question, no body knows what God has planned, but many know that he does have a plan.

If God is powerful enough to make anything happen by his own will, but he chooses to withhold his will in order for me to make a choice, is that taking away from God's omnipotence in any way??? Just because God has power, doesn't mean that he has to use it.

Be careful when you say God controls everything. If he did, then he made Satan fall, he made Adam fall, and (ergo) he is responsible for all fallen man after Adam. That would mean that he purposefully sent all of these billions of people to Hell. At some point, you have to admit that things have not gone the way God wanted them to go. You have to allow for someone's free will (against God) at some point. The logical conclusion is that the Christian God is a God that can (and does) accept disappointment. His humility is his glory, not his weakness.

Either way, I think the "God must control everything" doctrine is either 1) weak, 2) scary as hell or 3) a projection of the believer's own OCD complex.

Not that you're OCD, theSeed, but you get my point.

In Him,
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.